Is God Evil?

Hi PurpledawnThis topic is about whether or not God is evil. It is not about what God is ABLE to do, it is about what he SHOULD do.Do you really think that whatever God does (or has done), it makes no difference, it must always be good? Is there one moral code for God and a different one for the rest of us?Edited by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, : No reason given.

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Do you really think that whatever God does (or has done), it makes no difference, it must always be good?

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Nope. I'm saying a supreme being can do what they want. What difference does it make whether we perceive it as evil or not?

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Is there one moral code for God and a different one for the rest of us?

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There are different rules for what a government or nation can do as opposed to what individuals can do. God in the OT is the head of his nation.So who sets up the moral code for a supreme being?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

So what you are saying is that yes, he is evil, but as we cannot hold him to account we should just lump it?.I fail to say why this stops him being labled accurarely as evil.The fact he does not care that we view him as evil does not stop him being a monster.If he did care he would not do it. He should set it up for himself. It seems so important that we live in specified way, to him, eh? Edited by Larni, : Last 2 sentences.

To me, you seem to be very confused about the difference between laws, power and morality.What is right by the law, is not necessarily the same as what is morally right.Similarly, what any being (supreme or otherwise) chooses to do because they are powerful enough to do it, is not necessarily the right thing to do.In a particular context, a powerful being might have the freedom to choose between killing someone or not killing someone. Would it be morally the right decision whichever option they took?I would say, no. Whether the decision was morally good or evil would not depend on how powerful the being was that made the decision.

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Well obviously no one died as a result of the Yawehs' actions in reality but for the sake of argument we have to grant his existance for this discussion to even take place.

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We have to accept his existence, but not necessarily the outcome of the supposed events. The originator not so clear on whether "word of God" means every single word was dictated by God, only the words attributed to God, or whether the writings are man's perception of God. Christians have covered all the three. Personally, I go with #3. So we really don't have evidence that these deaths happened at God's hand.

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The point remains that his actions are evil and it does not matter that he is in charge.

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At face value, I would agree his actions are violent. I consider his actions to be an exaggerated reflection of how mankind behaved.

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I would suggest that his actions serve no one apart from himself and this is selfish.

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Served. In the Exodus story he got the people out of bondage.Taking the full stories into account, could you show me in which ones he only served himself? If we take the killings as true we have to take the purpose as true.

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I would suggest that his actions cause extreme pain and misery for many people and this is cruel.

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Caused. Those were cruel times. What did he do in the NT or the several hundred years before the NT?

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You cannot say he gets a free pass because he holds all the cards. I would hazard that he has an obligation to his creations to treat them in a manner that causes least pain.

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I always love it when people put restrictions on supreme beings or people with magical powers. We are to assume God exists, but the originator didn't say we had to assume God was omnipotent, omniscience, etc. Unfortunately he probably does.Who is a supreme being accountable to? Free pass from what, our judgment? (I'm sure he's quivering.)
Who has jurisdiction over a supreme being?
What are we powerless humans going to do to him? (No money in the offering plate?)

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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So what you are saying is that yes, he is evil, but as we cannot hold him to account we should just lump it?.

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Nope, but take into account the timeframe.Do his morals reflect the morals of the time?
At that time he was their supreme leader, not ours.Do we say ancient people were evil because their values were different?We may perceive the actions as evil today, but were they considered evil at the time?I agree, those actions by our standards today would be considered morally reprehensible.Some of the assumptions of omnipotence, omniscience and such; cloud your perception.You say that because he knew ahead of time his experiment wouldn't work...evil.
So if he isn't omniscient and therefore didn't know ahead of time; what does that alter in your perception?Does God say he can see everything in the infinite future?He couldn't see that Adam and Eve would eat from the tree and that's parenting 101 stuff.What I'm saying is be a judge and base your verdict on the evidence in the book, not hearsay. Read all the evidence, not just one line.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I sure do. Irrelevant. Well then, that settles it, I guess. Not really, no. If he was or wasn't those things is irrelevant to the fact those actions are evil. Nothing in mine. Irrelevant. The evidence quite clearly shows he killed lots and lots of people. I call doing that evil.

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I hunt for the truthI am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

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Does this make it good to do so?

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In today's society no, but the stories don't take place in today's society. Even in American history men were allowed to do what they wanted with what they owned, women and children included.What purpose does it serve to declare God morally reprehensible by today's standards?

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Ok, fine, if god did it, then would you consider him good for doing so?

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There's no basis for the action and no you can't concoct a basis for the action because you aren't a supreme being. In the stories, there is usually a reason for why God did what he did.

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So, you're agreeing god is not good?

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No, I asked where does God claim to be good in the OT? I claim that in monotheism the god carries both characteristics. He does what can be perceived as good by our standards today and he can do what is perceived as reprehensible by our standards today.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Similarly, what any being (supreme or otherwise) chooses to do because they are powerful enough to do it, is not necessarily the right thing to do.

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Says who? This is a supreme being that can supposedly control the weather, make fireballs, etc.Right and wrong are relative. If God's the top of the heap, what are right and wrong held relative to?This thread is holding God accountable to our current version of right and wrong.What was considered right and wrong when God supposedly committed the atrocities?What purpose does it serve to judge God's past actions by today's standards?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

It wouldn't be you who was giving the life, it would be God. All you did was pull the trigger on the potential for life supplied by God, so to speak. It's still Gods.
- Yes. One thing we have been given that is ours to do with (within boundaries) is a will. If we don't want to praise his name then we don't have to.- Your position, whilst emotive, hasn't much basis in rational reasoning Larni. From whence the notion that you are your own? Is it not logical to suppose that unless you are given ownership rights over yourself, by God, then you have no ownership rights over yourself?

This is a good discussion so far although I would like to remind some of you that the question is: Is God Evil?Evil as defined by the human race is either and adjective or a noun or it could be both, I suppose.Adj.-Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
-Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
-Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
-Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
-Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.I think it is safe to determine, without doubt, that forcing people to eat their children is an evil deed. It's safe to say that God, if he exists, has caused much ruin, injury and pain. It is also safe to say that God often acts out of anger, spite and with malicious intent. I mean, murdering one million Ethiopians alone was a pretty malicious act. These actions and many more are detailed in Gods own words. Therefore, any human being with an iota of common sense can surmise that Gods actions in the Bible are, quite often, Evil.Evil can also be defined as a noun:Noun.-The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
-That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
-An evil force, power, or personification.
-Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.Now, if we examine the documented actions of this being and the suffering, destruction, misfortune, injury and outright malice he has unleashed upon the living creatures of this planet since Adam and Eve were banned from the garden of Eden, it is safe to say - in no uncertain terms, that these are the actions of an evil entity.No non-evil entity has ever sent carnivores into your homes to steal your children. No non-evil entity has ever drowned every living thing on the planet while only sparing a few. No non-evil entity has ever given Satan permission to take human lives, and certainly there has never been a non-evil entity that has given life to a living being only to order other living beings to torture that being until the life was slowly and agonizingly, ripped away from it.Now, I contend that there is no sane argument to the contrary regarding the above sentiment. There is no avoiding the reality that this being is literally defined as evil. The evidence is right here in black and white.One can wish that things were different but that does not make them so. One can not refute reality. To do so is to enter into a discussion that involves what-ifs and could-have-beens and once a discussion has become watered down to that level we may as well start discussing the existence of Smurfs.Now, for the sake of this discussion, I am agreeing that there is a God and that this Gods words and works are written on the pages of the Bible. I am not in contention with the Bible or the inference that it is indeed the word of God. I am simply reading it and describing the evil deeds documented within it.Any being that can claim to love man on one hand while simultaneously torturing man with the evil depicted in this book is a deceptive and evil entity. This is not only a dishonest, angry and deceptive being but, in fact, his actions more closely resemble the very description the book gives of Satan than do Satan's own actions within the very same book. How can any sentient being overlook the enormous, undeniable amount of hypocrisy within this book and claim that this being is all good, all loving and a being worthy of eternal worship and adoration?To be honest, when I read this book and dwell on the existence of this God, I actually hope and pray that he doesn't exist. There is enough evil on this planet caused by man alone. I dread the thought that an all powerful being with a resume as evil as God's is could actually exist. This doesn't make me love him it makes me fear for all mankind that this hideous butcher and tormentor may actually exist.But one thing is pretty undeniable; if he does exist, he must be evil. Nothing else can describe the actions he so carefully describes in his own journal; the Bible.

Irrelevant. It was wrong then, it is wrong now, and it will always be wrong. And that was evil. You sure like to dodge this question, don't you? And that makes it ok? Ok. But his good deeds don't make his evil deeds ok. So, basically, you agree. God did some despiccable things. He also did some good things. By no means does this make it ok to do evil things.

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I hunt for the truthI am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

I don't know what you mean by talking about God abiding by today's standards or past standards.Are they God's standards or human standards?Who is deciding the moral standards of the day - God or humans?Surely an eternal being should have eternal standards. Or at least they ought to have been developed beyond those of bronze age humans long before God was smart enough to create the universe.You ask "What purpose does it serve to judge God's past actions by today's standards". Well, my purpose is to show what a lot of nonsense the Bible is as a moral code and how unlikely it is that anything like the God of the Bible ever existed.And I would ask, bearing in mind that "purpose" of life is a major facet to the Christian doctrine, what purpose does it serve for God to demand certain moral behaviour, and wipe out civilisations that fail to abide by that standard, and then change the standard over time? What IS God's purpose? And why should we pay any attention to him?

Hi WotakYes, God is evil - although almost certainly a fictional character. For reasons stated in my messages to Purpledawn, it is inconceivable that a being so advanced it could create the universe, would be so feebleminded when it came to understanding morals. That's why I think you raised a very good topic.

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I don't know what you mean by talking about God abiding by today's standards or past standards.

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Laws, morals, standards, etc. change through the ages.

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Are they God's standards or human standards?

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The OP doesn't say whose standards this judgment is based on. I assume human standards.

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Surely an eternal being should have eternal standards. Or at least they ought to have been developed beyond those of bronze age humans long before God was smart enough to create the universe.

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Why?

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You ask "What purpose does it serve to judge God's past actions by today's standards". Well, my purpose is to show what a lot of nonsense the Bible is as a moral code and how unlikely it is that anything like the God of the Bible ever existed.

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It wasn't at the time it was written. It wasn't written for today. There are more practical and reasonable ways to show unlikeliness of the Biblical God. Declaring him evil doesn't really do a lot. One reason is that there isn't any real evidence the killings happened. So the Hebrews make their God look tough.

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And I would ask, bearing in mind that "purpose" of life is a major facet to the Christian doctrine, what purpose does it serve for God to demand certain moral behaviour, and wipe out civilisations that fail to abide by that standard, and then change the standard over time? What IS God's purpose? And why should we pay any attention to him?

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The purpose would depend on the story being used and what the story was trying to convey. I don't know that the stories all had the same purpose.Mankind, civilization, cultures, religion, etc. all change over time. The stories reflect that. The Bible is stuck in time, but mankind continues to change. The Bible tells of man's journey from one religious point of view.Man is good and evil, why wouldn't their gods be?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz