Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2

Hi NOMA, But that is the problem I do take it as it is written with no additions or substractions.Anyone who tries to make one story out of the two accounts is not taking the literal reading of the text.That is the reason I laid out several messages in the first post back to you where I state what the Bible literally says and asked you to refute what I put forth.In 60 years nobody has even tried to refute what that 10 year old boy read and understood the literal text to say.If you would care to you could take the two things I affirm in my post prior to this one and refute or correct them.If it is as simple as you say that should be no problem.When we get past that post I will move on and go back through everything I have affirmed in this thread.BTW this is research in preparation for writing that book you advised me to write. Except it will be a Literal Account of Genesis Creation or A Radical View of Genesis Creation I have been working on it for 3 years now.God Bless,

Hi NOMA,You edited your post while I was answering it. They were not created you are adding to the text.Order of events in G2God formed man, out of the dust of the ground. Gen. 2:7
God planted a garden and put the man in it. Gen 2:8
God forbid the man to eat of a specific tree. Gen. 2:17
God made every tree to grow out of the ground. Gen. 2:9
God formed creatures and fowl from the ground. Gen. 2:19
God made a woman from a rib from the man. Gen. 2:22 But it contradicts everything in G1.Order of events in G1 Vegetation brought forth from the seed that was in the ground.Where did that seed come from if the plants had not already existed? The same Hebrew word כרא is used in Genesis 1:1 concerning the creation of the Heaven and the Earth. It is also used in Genesis 1:27 concerning man. These are the only creation events recorded in Genesis. All other uses in Genesis refere to one of these events.Fowl produced from the water instead of formed from the ground.Great whales or sea monsters were created. They had never existed.All other water creatures was produced after their kind.If they were produced after their kind they had to have previously existed. All the land creatures were made after their kind. After the sea monsters (great whales) were created and all the others things produced after its kind or from the seed in the ground God created man male and female created He them. God then told them to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth. How could they do that if it had not been previously inhabited?God told them they could eat the fruit of every tree. He did not forbid them from eating from any tree. You got to get them saying the same things at the same time before you can get G2 to explain what happened in G1.Events take place in a totally different sequence in G1 than they do in G2. Not to mention other differences.Now I been waiting 60 years for someone to explain how the two events described above can be the story of 1 event.If you or anyone else has the answer now would be a great time to explain it to me.God Bless,In Message 454 you said: No to be more accurate it is like he built the aircraft and a few billions years later printed the manual.The Heaven and the Earth with mankind was here a long time before the manual was written. I thought I had made that perfectly clear in this thread.The man in G2 was formed from the dust of the ground in the day God created the Heaven and Earth which existed at Genesis 1:2.Genesis 2:4 declares that the following is the history of the Heaven and the Earth in the DAY God created the Heaven and the Earth.If the literal reading of that verse is true everything that took place from Gen. 2:5-4:24 took place in the light period in which God created the Heaven and Earth.There is no date given for the beginning. Four months prior to my presenting my version on a prayer meeting night. I heard an old country preacher preach in a revival from John 3:16, 17, 18. He then spoke about a place called Hell where all those would go who were condemned at stated in 3:18.He that believeth is not condemned but he that believeth not is condemned because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.I went home lost, went to bed and went to sleep. Sometime during the night I woke up and the words of that preacher went through my mind. I rehershed the words of John 3:16 and 18.
I realized I was lost and needed to be saved. Laying there looking up to the ceiling I called out to God to save me and give me eternal life. True to His word He sent the Holy Spirit at that moment and sealed my spirit until the day of redemption.I am a blood bought child of God waiting for His return and trying to point others to Him, and His Truth. What difference does it make when the man was in the garden and disobeyed God. If it was a few trillion years ago or an eternity in the past that God created the Heaven and the Earth and the first man.That man disobeyed God and because of that disobedience sin entered into the universe and by that sin death.Every person that has ever walked on the face of the earth from that man until the present is separated from God and under the penalty of sin.Man does not go to the lake of fire because he is a sinner. He goes there because he will not accept the offer of a free full pardon by God through the sacrifice that was made on Calvary. But I am not talking about a pre-adamic race.I am talking about the first man that was formed from the dust of the ground that God breathed the breath of life into and he became a living being. Who was not made in the image/likeness of God but came to be like God according to Gods words in Gen. 3:22.The problem with the word adam is that it is the transliteration of the Hebrew word אדמ which does not mean adam. Its definition is man or mankind. Adam is said to be a transliteration which is false as the transliteration of the three Hebrew letters would be adm.So the word Adam is a creation from the imagination of some so called scholar.There are a lot of things we have been taught that is not true.Have you ever wondered why you can not find an age for Cain or any of his descendants?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi NOMA, The first one made is from the Hebrew word, עשה and has to do with doing work as making something.Example: I take plywood cut it up and then make a cabinet by doing work and putting it together.The second one is from the Hebrew word, יער and has to do with the physical forming something out of existing materials.Example: I take clay and from that clay form a vaise.The third one created is from the Hebrew word, כרא and is about the begining to exist of an entity. It is used for 3 events in Genesis. They are Gen. 1:1, 1:21, 1:27. All other uses of the word in Genesis is refering to one of these events.Example: There is no Universe or Earth. God speaks and they begin to exist. There are no Great Sea Monsters able to swallow Jonah God speaks and they begin to exist. There are no humans who are in the image/likeness of God. God speaks and modern humans male and female begin to exist.Call it semantics if you like but different Hebrew words are used in the Bible when talking about the different events that took place in G1 and G2.I have the idea Moses wrote the story down like God gave it to him. The problem arises because man has been the keeper of the Word and has done a louzy job. In Message 238 I tried to begin a discussion of the contradictions supposidly in the two stories and was immediately told I was off topic by PD.Don't fool yourself about getting somewhere with PD, ringo, Theodoric, jar, Coragyps, or Percy. I have been butting that wall for over 3 years. greyseal has been around a little over a year.jar has a church in california and claims to be a christian. But does not believe the Bilble.Percy is a Deist God started everything and evolution is how He did it.It don't look like you are having any argument in any thread right now. So what headway are you making.You can't refute my version. In fact you have not presented any ingormation that is on the net that does try to refute my version.I have given you ample time and space to prove your version.I have even outlined most of the contradictions (there are a few more I have not mentioned yet) and you have refuted none of them.If you can't convince me a person that will accept what the Bible says at face value, how are you going to convince those folks who believe the Bible is a myth filled with folk lore?Think about it all you have to do is show me where my reasoning is wrong.Standing on your stump waving your arms in the air and telling me I am wrong without explaining where I am wrong will not convince me of anything.My deceased friends Dr. Jerry Falwell and Dr. Albert Garner used the same system but could never answer my questions.Why did the man live to be 930 years old if God said the day you eat the fruit of the tree of the knowedge of good and evil you will die?If that man did not die the same day he ate the fruit then God lied.If God lied about the man dying then why should I believe Him when He says He will give me eternal life?In other words if God lied about the man dying, why should I believe anything in the Bible?I know the standard explanation is that he died spiritually that day then lived 930 years and died physically.But that is not what the text says.The text says: "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."The Hebrew word מןה translated die means to die, kill, have one executed.So it was required that the man who ate the fruit die physically in the same day he ate the fruit.The only way that is possible is if my version is correct. There are no other explanations.Or God lied.If you have a better explanation please share it with me.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi jar,Good to see you are still reading my posts. A better explanation for who, You or God?Just because you do not agree with what is recorded in the Bible does not make it false or fiction.It just means you do not have the foggiest idea what the message recorded there is.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi greyseal, Nothing you have said here responds to what you quoted.Now if you are refering to Genesis 2:4 you would need to add a little to your schedule.6. You finished your work day.
7. By the time you got home it was dark.
What happened after darkness came would corespond to the time verse 2-5 took place.
8. You ate supper, took a bath and went to bed.
9. When you woke up it was the end of the first day as the second day had begun.Now lets apply that to to what I said in the post you are replying too.Sometime in the beginning God created the Heaven (Universe)
Sometime in the beginning God created the Earth. (PLanet Earth)
During that same day before darkness came. This verse declares the things following in Genesis 2:5-4:24 to be the history (generations) of the day God created the Heaven and the Earth.So the following would take place in the day God created the Heaven and the Earth.1. God caused a mist to rise from the ground which watered the whole face of the ground.2. God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and that form became a living being.3. God planted a garden and made every tree that was pleasant to the sight and good for food to grow out of the ground.4. God took the man and placed him in the garden to dress it and to keep it.5. God told the man if he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would die the same day he ate it.6. Out of the ground God formed every beast of the field and every fowl of the air.7. The man gave names to all cattle, fowl and every beast of the field.8. God caused the man to sleep and took a rib from his body.9. From that rib God made a woman.10. The woman had a conversation with the serpent and he convinced her it was in her best interest to eat the forbidden fruit.11. She gave to the man and he ate also.12. God kicked them out of His garden and told them they would have work for their food.13. They had two sons Cain the firstborn and Able.14. Cain killed abel because God had favor to an offering Abel offered to God an not to Cain's offering.15. Cain moved away from the location his father was living in to a place called nod.16. There he and his wilf had a son they named Enoch.17. Cain built a city and named it after Enoch.18. Enoch had a son named Irad who had a son named Mehujael who had a son named Methusael who had a son named Lamech. Lamech had two sons named Jabal and Jubal19. Lamech killed a young man.20. We have no further information concerning these people. We have no ages for any of them. The only two deaths recorded was Abel and the young man Lamech killed.We do know they died because they did not exist when this light period ended at Genesis 1:2 when we find the evening of the first light period. Designated a day by God in Genesis 1:5. With the earth covered with water.The man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 died the same day he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.The land mass called earth was covered with water at Genesis 1:2.We are not given any details of how this happened.Then we have the days of Moses telling us of God's refurbshing the earth for modern mankind who were created in the image/likeness of God to live on.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi greyseal, This is a discussion of what is recorded in the KJV Bible as supported by the Hebrew text and the LXX.It is irrelavant whether it is true or false.I am affirming what the text found in the KJV Bible says.If you want to debate whether the Bible is true or false then start a thread to that effect.If you disagree with what I have posted then by all means refute what I have written.Waving your hands and saying the Bible is false is not refutation of what the KJV Bible says.It either says what I have presented that it says or it does not say what I have presented that it says.I set this thread up as a debate.It is not a stump for everyone to jump on and preach their phylosophy. It is to discuss what the KJV Bible says or does not say.Do you care to refute what I have affirmed?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi jar, But in this thread I am not discussing who the Bible is meant for. I was refering to it agreeing with your personal worldview.What I have affirmed in this thread has nothing to do with whether the Bible is true, a myth, a fable or whatever.It only has to do with what is recorded in the KJV Bible supported by the LXX and Torah.I have affirmed that there is a story in Genesis 1:2-Genesis 2:3.I haave affirmed there is a story in Genesis 2:4-4:24 which is the history of what took place in Genesis 1:1.If you disagree that what I have presented is recorded in the KJV Bible then please present your refutation.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi jar, I make no such assumption. This verse says "these are the generations of the heavens and of the earth."תןלדןת can be translated generations which is the history of a family linage. It can and has been translated as history, as well as proceedings.So the context of Genesis 2:4 would require that תןלדןת
be translated history. Darby used histories, the World English Bible used history, Young used births.So when was the Heaven and the Earth created?` That verse says the Heaven and the Earth was created in the beginning.Genesis 2:4 says the following is the history of what happened in the beginning in the day when God created the heaven and the earth.So from the evidence written in the KJV Bible I conclude all the things from Genesis 2:5-4:24 is the history of the day God created the heaven and the earth.In Genesis 1:5 God calls a light period day. Why do I need to understand your understanding of two different gods involved?Why can't I just take the words in the text and examine them and take them at face value?Is the following recorded in the KJV Bible:Does Genesis 1:1 say "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."? Yes/NoDoes Genesis 2:4 say: "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,"? Yes/NoDoes Genesis 2:4 refer to the time frame in which the heaven and the earth were created? Yes/NoIf the answer is yes then it refers to Genesis 1:1.If the answer is no then please explain why it is not refering to Genesis 1:1.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi jar, No but if it will make you happy I will assert that Genesis 2:5-4:24 is the history of the day the Lord God created the Heaven and the Earth.I will also assert that the day the Lord God created the Heaven and the Earth took place in Genesis 1:1, as that is when the Heaven and the Earth was created.So when you get tired of playing your games show me where the text does not say: You have refuted nothing.You have asserted:The stories were written by two different cultures.
At two different times.
Meant to serve two different purposes.
For people living many hundreds if not thousands of years apart.You agree with me that the younger story if found in the first chapter of Genesis.You probably don't agree that Genesis 1:1 is separate from Genesis 1:2-2"3.You then assert: Which directly contradicts Genesis 1:1.So no your assertions refute nothing.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi ringo, Now you are beginning to see the light.In Genesis 1:5 God called a light period DAY.Genesis 2:4 says in the DAY light period that God created the heaven and the earth these things took place.That light period lasted from the beginning until the darkness came that we find at Genesis 1:2.So yes it was an extended period of light that existed for a very long period of duration.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi jar, You can copy the questions but you can not answer one of them.Why do I have to know whether I am dealing with 1 God or a hundred gods to read what the text in the KJV Bible has recorded in it?Why difference does it make whether it is a lie, myth, fiction story or whatever, to read what the text in the KJV Bible has recorded in it?Can you refute that the KJV Bible has recorded in it what I have said affirmed, asserted that it says?If so please do.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi greyseal, So are you calling God a liar concerning the definition of a day? That verse says God called a light period Day.It also says God called the darkness night.It also says God called the evening of the light period and the dark period that ended with morning that arrived with the light period of day two as the first day.Now God's word is not dependent on what you or I believe and it is also not dependent on what the Jews have said and practiced from the time of Moses.According to God a day is a period of light and or a period of light coupled with a period of darkness.The Hebrew word יןם
according to BDB lexicon means:1) day, time, year
a) day (as opposed to night)The Hebrew word שנה
according to BDB Lexicon means1) year
a) as division of time
b) as measure of timeSo why would יןם be used for year when it had it own special word? You can argue anything you desire to argue. You can believe anything you want to believe. Your belief or argument just does not make it a true fact.Time as you and I know it did not exist until God declared the first day.From that time until this the combination of a light period and a dark period has been a day.If you want to argue that they were long periods of time say 2 billion years, how could the plants survive the 2 billion years of darkness? Now you got up and went to work and spent 8 hours there. Then you went home and spent the dark portion eating an evening meal, taking a bath, watching a little TV and sleeping until the morning. That is a 24 hour day.So where do you get it that I am 12 hours short?The Jews used evening till evening for a day.God used the evening of a light period and the morning of a dark period as a day.Either one is a 24 hour period. My statement you are quoting here was a response to jar's comments made in Message 458. I really did not appreciate jar's assertion that the story is fiction.So I was asking who that statement was better for God or jar.Who do you think it was a better explanation for?Was it better for jar and his unbelief?OrWas it better for God portraying Him as a liar?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi ringo, God called the light portion Day.God called the dark portion night.God called the combination of the light portion and the dark portion the first day.The Heaven and Eareth existed at Genesis 1:2 which God called the evening in Genesis 1:5.That means the light portion of the first day had expired as darkness had fallen on the Earth.That is the reason the Day in Genesis 2:4 is the light period that ended at Genesis 1:2.The Heaven and the Earth was created in Genesis 1:1. Well it could have been a 12 hour light period that ended in Genesis 1:2 but the observations and evidence would suggest it was a little longer than that.Everything from Genesis 2:5-Genesis 4:24 including 7 generations of people and Cain building a city took place in that light period.Let me go out on a limb here.Since there is no way to tell when the beginning was and science says it was 13.7 billion years ago and according to the texts of the Bible generations Genesis 1:2 was in the neighborhood of 10,000 to 6,000 years ago.I think it is safe to conclude there was an extended light period of unknown duration prior to Genesis 1:2.You got any contrary evidence.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi jar, So you want to say there is an old story and a later story.Then you want to put the man formed from the dust of the ground in the old story into the younger story of the man that was created in the image/likeness of God and say they are the same man. This refers to the man created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27.This man is said to live to be 930 years old.Now go to the older story in Genesis 2:4-4:24 and find the age of any man. The man formed from the dust of the ground or Cain or any of the other 5 generations.The man formed from the dust of the ground lived and died in the light period God created the Heaven and the Earth according to the History of the day the LORD God created the Earth and the Heaven.The man did not exist at Genesis 1:2 therefore he died the day he ate the fruit, disobeying God. Well if she did not die I would like to sit down with her and get her to explain to me just what took place from then until now. That would be a great story.The problem is the serpent lied she died.He did tell the truth when he said she would become as God knowing good and evil. When you accept what the text says there is no problem and it can be accepted as a fact according to what is written in the manuscripts as well as the scientific evidence that testifies to the events that happened.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi jar, So where do you get the age of the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7?According to the text he lived in the day the LORD God creatred the Heaven and the Earth.He did not exist at Genesis 1:2, when darkness had come.Therefore he died the same day he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Then you can't read or you can't understand what you read. Where does these verses mention the man formed from the dust of the ground? Was she alive at the evening of Genesis 1:2 when the earth was covered with water? I have heard that and been told that but nobody has ever presented any evidence for the origin of the universe.The Bible is the only source of that informaion.Actual observation concure with the Bible.Science says the universe began to exist
Genesis 1:1. says the universe began to exist.Science says the universe is very old 13.7 billion years old.
Genesis 1:1 says the universe is very old as it was created in the beginning which there is no date for.So science and Genesis 1:1 is in agreement, concerning the creation of the universe.They are in agreement in a lot of other places but I am trying to limit the discussiion to the first two chapters of Genesis in this thread.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."