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Author Topic:   Flood Geology: A Thread For Portillo
Dr Adequate
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Message 1 of 503 (673209)
09-16-2012 10:34 AM


I should like this thread to be devoted to Portillo's explanations of "flood geology" and answers to his claims. He seems to want to talk about it, but what he says it clearly off-topic on the thread he started about Australian marsupials.

Therefore, if the moderators are in agreement, I suggest that we have at least one wide-ranging, broadly-focused topic about flood geology in general and why the rest of us think it's wrong.

As there is meant to be a specific question to every topic, I would suggest this. Would Portillo, or any other "flood geologist" around here explain the principles of "flood geology" and why they think these principles are right?

As the proposer of a topic is meant to state his or own position, I shall state my own ideas: "flood geology" is a farce.

I should add that Portillo is one of the better sort of creationist, and that so long as he himself remains civil he deserves a civil debate in return. We don't have to be nice about his views, but while his own hands are clean of personal attacks, none should be made on him, and I would like the moderators to take notice of this stipulation.


Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Serg-antr, posted 09-18-2012 9:39 PM Dr Adequate has responded
 Message 60 by Portillo, posted 09-25-2012 1:46 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
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Message 2 of 503 (673211)
09-16-2012 12:36 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Flood Geology: A Thread For Portillo thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15936
Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 3 of 503 (673214)
09-16-2012 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
09-16-2012 12:36 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
OK.

So this is pretty much up to Portillo. What are his principles, and why should we believe them? And I would like to ask that no-one else should jump in until he's had a chance to set out his own position.


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Serg-antr
Junior Member (Idle past 898 days)
Posts: 23
From: Ukraine
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Message 4 of 503 (673402)
09-18-2012 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
09-16-2012 10:34 AM


..."flood geology" is a farce...

Farce? Let's try to figure out why exactly farce. Sedimentary rocks are predominantly of marine origin and the same rocks can be produced from various processes. Why should we make an exception for the flood to determine the genesis of rocks?

Sorry for my bad English.

Edited by Serg-antr, : No reason given.


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 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-16-2012 10:34 AM Dr Adequate has responded

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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15936
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 5 of 503 (673405)
09-18-2012 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Serg-antr
09-18-2012 9:39 PM


I can forgive your bad English, but not make sense of it. Some of the subtleties of your argument must have passed me by, such as what it is.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Serg-antr, posted 09-18-2012 9:39 PM Serg-antr has responded

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Serg-antr
Junior Member (Idle past 898 days)
Posts: 23
From: Ukraine
Joined: 05-12-2010


Message 6 of 503 (673411)
09-19-2012 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr Adequate
09-18-2012 11:08 PM


My argument is that your words about farce are not substantiated. We do not know what processes are formed by sedimentary rocks, we judge of it only by analogy to modern processes, and they can be very different from those that were in the Earth's history. Therefore the claim that flood geology is a farce at least has no reason.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-18-2012 11:08 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

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 Message 20 by Taq, posted 09-20-2012 3:35 PM Serg-antr has responded

    
NoNukes
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Message 7 of 503 (673420)
09-19-2012 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Serg-antr
09-19-2012 4:17 AM


herefore the claim that flood geology is a farce at least has no reason.

If you mean "no reason" yet established in this thread, then you are right. Dr. Adequate has not yet provided his argument that flood geology is a farce. But it will be quite easy to demonstrate the farce when all of the things that the flood is purported to have produced are considered.

So far, the only thing you have argued is that a sedimentary layer can be formed by a flood. There is far more to explain.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


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Message 8 of 503 (673421)
09-19-2012 9:29 AM


What is flood geology?
Let's try to get this thread onto a constructive basis. The opening post is not really an outline of the topic but more an invitation to Portillo to discuss his ideas about flood geology. In my moderator role I promoted this thread because Portillo has attempted to discuss flood geology in threads on other topics, and though I invited him several times to propose a thread on flood geology he never did so. So when Dr Adequate proposed a flood geology thread for him, even though this is not the ideal way to begin in thread, in the hope that it would help reduce the number of off-topic posts in other threads I promoted it.

But Portillo has not yet joined in to outline his position on flood geology, and he may never do so. And so I ask someone else to take on this task. It doesn't matter if that person is an evolutionist or a creationist, but I will hide the content of any message that isn't a sincere, honest and *accurate* attempt to do so from a creationist perspective.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Straggler
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From: London England
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Message 9 of 503 (673423)
09-19-2012 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Admin
09-19-2012 9:29 AM


Re: What is flood geology?
Flood geology is the attempt to reconcile the observable geological data with the historical evidence for a flood provided by the bible.

Flood geology is an alternative interpretation of the observable data which, unlike conventional geology, does not conflict with what Young Earth creationists deem to be the true word of God.

So, for example, flood geologists argue that the existence of fossils are evidence of a catastrophic flood rather than slow changes over millions of years on the basis that fossilisation (rather than decomposition) occurs as a result of being buried rapidly during a flood.

Flood geologists also cite the positioning of fossils in the geologic column as evidence of a catastrophic flood in terms of how different types of life were impacted and the order that their remains then settled. So, for example, humans due to their superior intelligence were able able to recognise the danger and make to higher land thus resulting in human fossils at the top of the fossil order. And so on...

Flood geology necessarily assumes that a catastrophic flood occurred and seeks to interpret all other geological evidence into that framework.


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15936
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 10 of 503 (673426)
09-19-2012 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Straggler
09-19-2012 10:17 AM


Re: What is flood geology?
Flood geology is the attempt to reconcile the observable geological data with the historical evidence for a flood provided by the bible.

Flood geology is an alternative interpretation of the observable data ...

I would object to that characterization. Flood geology usually ignores a lot of the observable data and makes stuff up to boot. You should rather say: "the attempt to reconcile all the observable or made-up geological data that they think they can reconcile".

Look at Portillo's stuff on the other thread. Despite being corrected numerous times and shown actual photographs of fossils, he still goes on talking as though it is usual for fossils to be found intact, perfectly preserved, unaffected by decay and scavengers. Elsewhere he has insisted that decay has destroyed all the skeletons in modern-era shipwrecks, and that similarly decay has ensured that there are no surviving bones of the buffalo herds wiped out in the 1800s, and that "in Siberia there are 5 million woolly mammaths frozen". His data is almost monotonously contrary to observation.

Meanwhile, they're barely tackling the hard stuff. A lot of the observable data is barely mentioned, they haven't tried to synthesize it into their point of view. They are producing acolytes, not a theory, so they don't systematically go through the phenomena of geology and try to explain them in terms of their hypothesis.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Straggler, posted 09-19-2012 11:26 AM Dr Adequate has responded
 Message 14 by NoNukes, posted 09-19-2012 12:21 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Straggler
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Message 11 of 503 (673427)
09-19-2012 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dr Adequate
09-19-2012 10:56 AM


Re: What is flood geology?
Dr A writes:

I would object to that characterization.

Well technically I would object to my own characterization. I was doing my best to follow Percy's request to put forth a creationist perspective.

I could have just said something along the lines of "Flood geology is a pile of un-evidenced biblical bollocks" and arguably been more factually accurate. But that probably wouldn't have qualified as attempting to accurately describe a creationist position on the matter.....

Really Dr A - Try to be less literal in your interpretations


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 Message 10 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-19-2012 10:56 AM Dr Adequate has responded

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Message 12 of 503 (673428)
09-19-2012 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Straggler
09-19-2012 11:26 AM


Re: What is flood geology?
As they say, no good deed goes unpunished. Thanks for taking this on, I thought it was very well done. You can resume thinking frontwards now.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Straggler
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Posts: 10196
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 13 of 503 (673438)
09-19-2012 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Admin
09-19-2012 11:31 AM


Re: What is flood geology?
OK. Sorry. On the more positive side of things I have looked up (i.e. Wiki'ed) a bit more about what those who advocate flood geology have said and done and what the currently preferred flood geology model is. The main current theory seems to be "runaway subduction".

Wiki on flood geology writes:

In the last two decades, most proposed flood mechanisms involve "runaway subduction", the rapid movement of tectonic plates, in one form or another.

One specific form of runaway subduction is called "catastrophic plate tectonics", proposed by geophysicist John Baumgardner and supported by the Institute for Creation Research and Answers in Genesis.

Link

Basically this is a massive and sudden re-arrangement of tectonic plates. Further details can be found in the link.

An alternative to this is the "Hovind Theory" which describes a giant ice meteor coming towards Earth, breaking into fragments and causing catastrophic flooding and "super cold snow".

There are other versions of flood geology but as far as I can ascertain these are two of the most publicised currently. The creationist position seems most succinctly summed up by the following:

(From Answers in Genesis via Wiki)

quote:
The debate about the age of the earth is ultimately a question of whose word we are going to trust: the all-knowing truthful Creator who has given us His inerrant book (the Bible) or finite, sinful creatures who give us their books that contain errors and therefore are frequently revised. If you firmly trust and carefully read the Bible and become informed on creationist interpretations of the geological record, you can easily see how the rocks of the earth powerfully confirm the Bible’s teaching, both about Noah’s Flood and a young earth.

Basically, so the argument goes, it's all just a matter of interpretation and those who advocate a flood interpretation will argue that their explanation has equal or greater explanatory power than that of conventional science.


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NoNukes
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From: Central NC USA
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Message 14 of 503 (673439)
09-19-2012 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dr Adequate
09-19-2012 10:56 AM


Re: What is flood geology?
Meanwhile, they're barely tackling the hard stuff.

I believe you've given a peep of your hole card. I was kinda hoping the rough stuff wouldn't start until after Portillio posted.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-19-2012 10:56 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15936
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 15 of 503 (673451)
09-19-2012 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Straggler
09-19-2012 11:26 AM


Re: What is flood geology?
Yeah, OK, I agree that they're pretending to interpret the geological record in terms of the flood.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Straggler, posted 09-19-2012 11:26 AM Straggler has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 09-20-2012 9:17 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
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