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Author Topic:   States petition for secession
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 196 of 384 (689090)
01-28-2013 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Faith
01-28-2013 3:22 AM


Re: Virtual States
Instead of assuming the worst about my motivations and how all this would necessarily play out according to your most jaundiced imagination, why not consider the various problems and look for solutions to them? I'm arguing this in good faith, looking for GOOD solutions for ALL concerned, not trying to cheat anybody out of anything. Your insinuations are disgusting.
What the hell are you talking about?
Provide specific quotes that you are purportedly responding to!
If you instead are just posting absolute nonsense, then you obviously have nothing to say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 01-28-2013 3:22 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Faith, posted 01-28-2013 3:53 AM dwise1 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 197 of 384 (689091)
01-28-2013 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Faith
01-28-2013 2:55 AM


Re: Virtual States
Since you refuse to consider any of this in good faith, the conversation is over.
I am indeed considering all of the discussion in good faith.
Since you are claiming otherwise, it is plainly you who is not arguing in good faith. Which is sadly typical of "good Christians".
Fuck you too! -- though I am the one operating in good faith whereas you are the one who is blatantly false.
Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Faith, posted 01-28-2013 2:55 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 198 of 384 (689092)
01-28-2013 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Faith
01-28-2013 2:51 AM


Re: Virtual States
quote:
Yes and no. I don't know about Madison but Washington, Adams, Jefferson and Franklin and even Paine during the period of the Revolutionary War, all very strongly espoused the maintenance of Christian morality in the country. At first it didn't seem like there should be a problem with eliminating state churches, but the idea among Christians seemed to be mostly that it was to prevent the suppression of other Protestant denominations, not give completely other religions equal status.
It seems that Jefferson intended to include Hinduism and Islam.
quote:
Christians have been told for decades now that the country WAS originally inspired to be Christian and it is possible to point to many who said something along those lines over the years, although there is also the point of view you espouse.
It's quote clear that at least some of the Founders wanted a secular state, and the evidence suggests that they largely won. The Treaty of Tripoli is pretty clear, for, instance. If they had intended to give Protestant Christianity a special place, why is there no evidence of it in the actual Constitution ?
quote:
I definitely do NOT believe there was ever ANY idea that religion was to be just a "private matter," not in the amendment or even in the minds of the FOunders. No, I do not. The amendment prohibits the prohibiting of the free exercise of religion and that certainly does not imply keeping it to oneself.
Free exercise of religion does NOT require official government support for your religion (and only your religion), no matter how often people like you try to pretend otherwise. So of course it can be a private matter in that sense. Why should it not ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 01-28-2013 2:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 01-28-2013 4:40 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 199 of 384 (689093)
01-28-2013 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by dwise1
01-28-2013 3:28 AM


Re: Virtual States
OK perhaps I misread you and you were merely raising problems rather than accusing me of anything, so I apologize. Thinking about how to deal with those problems is what I figure this conversation is supposed to be about, and perhaps some of them are insurmountable and bring the subject to an end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by dwise1, posted 01-28-2013 3:28 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by dwise1, posted 01-28-2013 4:24 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 200 of 384 (689095)
01-28-2013 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by dwise1
01-28-2013 3:24 AM


Re: Virtual States
Well, shouldn't you consider that that "original Protestant Christianity" is deserving of being "undermined and lost"?
Absolutely not, it's eternal and it's universal, it IS the gospel of Jesus Christ based on the inerrant Bible and it should have been the inspiration for the whole country because it was the faith of the majority of the original settlers.
Especially since your own particular Christianity is of later origin?
My beliefs are the same as theirs.
And since the "founding inspiration of the country" is not your own particular flavor of Christianity, but rather something more derived from the Enlightenment?
No, I consider that to have been a betrayal of the Biblical faith that founded the nation.
Assuming that the Revolutionary Period common Christianity would have been identical to your own particular Christianity is rather obsurd, whouldn't you have to agree?
I consider my beliefs to be identical with theirs in all the basic eternal truths. They would have had different emphases but I shouldn't disagree even with those if they are rightly founded on the Bible. Christian preachers of that era such as Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield and the Wesleys, all preach the same gospel I believe in, I consider them all to be brothers in Christ, and their preachings are also very deep and inspiring compared to some stuff we hear today.
Especially considering the many new aspects to your theology that post-dates the Revolution?
Far as I know there are no "new aspects to my theology." I'm sure you have something in mind but I can't imagine what, nothing I'd consider essential no doubt and in fact probably sects I'd regard as apostate or cults.
As I recall, there was at least one Protestant voice raised against the very idea of public schools BECAUSE it would erode the faith by compromising with all the other ideologies, A A Hodge I think or another Hodge, it's been a while. There cannot possibly have been any desire whatever to dilute the original faith of the Protestants but somehow the way our institutions are now interpreted that is exactly what happened over the last century or two.
Archibald Alexander Hodge? Cannot find at the moment anything about public education.
I found it many years ago and can't find it now either. Maybe I'll do another search when I can.
Though your appeal to "Protestants" continues to imply some kind of uniformity that simply does not exist in any specific manner.
Not if you include everybody who claims the title (and I've been half expecting JAR to show up with his complaints about this, perhaps he will yet), but it does if you define it by objective standards of doctrine that date back to the Reformation. You can generally define it as "Bible believers," the faith that is based on the Bible as the one true authority.
I strongly wish that the Protestant inspiration of this nation had been better preserved by our institutions, as its loss is the cause of all our problems and this is of course why the topic of secession or splitting the nation appeals to me so much.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Oscar? Which means "What the frak, over?". Which means that that makes no actual sense whatsoever.
From the Declaration of Independence, we are talking about the Rights of Man and not about the Divine Rights of Kings.
I'm not talking aout the Divine Right of Kings either, but the Rights of Man as derived from the Enlightenment, while in the minds of some of the Founders, was NOT in the minds of the vast majority of colonials of the day, most of whom were true Christians, many of whom were deceived by the "God" language in the founding documents into thinking the Founders were too. Again, there were voices raised from the pulpits against the Constitution as a betrayal of the Christian majority and there were efforts from time to time after that to amend a Christian Preamble to the Constitution by people who believed God was punishing the nation, as through the Civil War, for turning away from Him.
That's what makes Jefferson's document so revolutionary. From the Preamble of the Constitution of the United States of America:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
which in the "secular humanist" Radical Religious Right (RRR) rhetorics of the 1980's was "secular humanism" at its worst.
So then just what precisely are you referring to?
Sadly it wasn't recognized as "secular humanist" by most Christians and still isn't. Christians really have been deceived into thinking the original Christian foundations of the nation were preserved in the Constitution and the Declaration.
Yes, the sentiment against Catholics was strong in colonial times. And it was strong throughout the 19th century. And it was still strong up until 1960 when we elected a Catholic President. So what?
Does the First Amendment only apply to your own particularly approved of brand of Christians? Or does it apply to all Americans?
I truly honestly believe that an honest faithful reflection of the character of the nation at the time would have favored Protestantism and while granting basic rights to the others would not have permitted them any kind of civil power. England had the same viewpoint and enforced it for a long time but just as stupidly as America is now rescinding it. What Samuel Adams said then is still true today.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by dwise1, posted 01-28-2013 3:24 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Faith, posted 01-28-2013 5:10 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 204 by dwise1, posted 01-28-2013 5:11 AM Faith has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 201 of 384 (689096)
01-28-2013 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Faith
01-28-2013 3:53 AM


Re: Virtual States
Yet again, What the hell are you talking about?
Please be specific and quote from original sources.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Faith, posted 01-28-2013 3:53 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 202 of 384 (689098)
01-28-2013 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by PaulK
01-28-2013 3:33 AM


Re: Virtual States
It seems that Jefferson intended to include Hinduism and Islam.
Washington too, I believe. Which Christians of the time either didn't know or didn't understand was subversive of the Christian character of the nation.
It's quote clear that at least some of the Founders wanted a secular state, and the evidence suggests that they largely won. The Treaty of Tripoli is pretty clear, for, instance. If they had intended to give Protestant Christianity a special place, why is there no evidence of it in the actual Constitution ?
Because THEY didn't, as I keep trying to say. Washington, Adams, Jefferson and Franklin were NOT Christians and while they were happy enough to promote Christian morality as essential to the prosperity of the nation, they denied the essentials of the salvation of Jesus Christ, which I've come to see as a terrible betrayal of the Christian majority of the time. Which most Christians then didn't recognize or today either unfortunately, although some preachers at the time did take note of it and preached against it. The big name founders with their Enlightenment views were a decided minority and they WERE traitors to the Christian majority. They produced a great Constitution nevertheless but leaving God out of it was a fatal flaw that's coming back to bite us in our time.
Free exercise of religion does NOT require official government support for your religion (and only your religion), no matter how often people like you try to pretend otherwise. So of course it can be a private matter in that sense. Why should it not ?
A fair assessment of the beliefs of the majority of the time would have required that it definitely endorse what you call "my" religion, and the sad thing is that it SEEMED to do so to most Christians of that day and since then.
Why should it have been the official religion of the land? Because the prosperity and success of the nation depend on it. As long as the majority and general culture nevertheless remained Protestant the nation was blessed, but since it's been so vilified and marginalilzed in recent years, virtually eliminated, we're coming under God's judgment, possibly a really terrible judgment very soon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by PaulK, posted 01-28-2013 3:33 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by PaulK, posted 01-28-2013 7:55 AM Faith has replied
 Message 209 by Coragyps, posted 01-28-2013 8:08 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 203 of 384 (689099)
01-28-2013 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Faith
01-28-2013 4:20 AM


Re: Virtual States
I've been researching that article on public educaton by A A Hodge and I've found many references to it but no complete copy, which I'd like to find so I can print it out myself.
It was originally an article in The New Princeton Review in 1887, under the title "Religion in the Public Schools."
It's available at Google Books but it's impossible to copy out excerpts from it there.
Here is a page of quotes on education from the Reformed point of view including some quotes from Hodge about 2/3 of the way down the page:
Religion in the Public Schools, The New Princeton Review 3, 1, 1887.
It is absolutely impossible to separate religious ideas from the great mass of human knowledge...where these are not positively implied they are virtually denied.
Education involves the training of the whole man and of all the faculties, of conscience and of the affections, as well as of the intellect...A purely non-theistic treatment of [English]...would not merely falsify the truth of the subject, but would necessarily make it an instrument of conveying positively antitheistic and antichristian ideas. All history is a product of divine Providence, and is instinct with the divine ends and order... It is self-evident that a non-theistic or a non-christian treatment of...history would be utterly superficial and misrepresenting. It cannot be questioned that morals rest on a religious basis, and that a non-theistic ethics is equivalent to a positively antitheistic one. The same is no less true of science in all its departments...If God is not therein recognized he is denied, and a non-theistic science has always been and will always be a positively atheistic and materialistic one.
Wm. T. Harris well says...‘whosoever teaches another view of the world... teaches a doctrine subversive of faith... and also subversive of man's life in all that makes it worth living.’
These infinite evils...cannot be corrected by the supplementary agencies of the Christian home, the Sabbath-school, or the church...Poison and its antidote together never constitute nutritious food. And it is simply madness to attempt the universal distribution of poison on the ground that other parties are endeavoring to furnish a partial distribution of an imperfect antidote.
Evangelical Theology, Banner of Truth, 1976, [1890], pgs.242-245.
The atheistic doctrine is gaining currency, even among professed Christians and even among some bewildered Christian ministers, that an education provided by the common government for the children of diverse religious parties should be entirely emptied of all religious character...It is capable of exact demonstration that if every party in the State has the right of excluding from the public schools whatever he does not believe to be true, then he that believes most must give way to him that believes leastIt is self-evident that on this scheme, if it is consistently and persistently carried out in all parts of the country, the United States system of national popular education will be the most efficient and wide instrument for the propagation of atheism which the world has ever seen (242,243).
The claim of impartiality between positions as directly contradictory as that of Jews, Mohammedans, and Christians, and especially as that of theists and of atheists, is evidently absurd. And no less is the claim absurd and impossible that a system of education can be indifferent on these fundamental subjects. There is no possible branch of human knowledge which is not purely formal, like abstract logic or mathematics, which can be known or taught in a spirit of entire indifference between theism and atheism. Every department... must be in reality one or the other: if it be not positively and confessedly theistic, it must be really and in full effect atheistic. The physical as well as the moral universe must be conceived either in a theistic or an atheistic light...Teleology [that everything has a purpose and is ordered to definite ends] must be acknowledged everywhere or be denied everywhere. Philosophy, ethics, jurisprudence, political and social science, can be conceived of and treated only from a theistic or from an atheistic point of view. The proposal to treat them from a neutral point of view is ignorant and absurd (243).
The prevalent superstition that men can be educated for good citizenship, or for any other use under heaven, without religion, is as unscientific and unphilosophical as it is irreligious (244).
It is no answer to say that the deficiency of the national system of education in this regard will be adequately supplied by the activities of the Christian churches. No court would admit in excuse for the diffusion of poison the plea that the poisoner knew of another agent actively employed in diffusing an antidote...atheism taught in the school cannot be counteracted by theism taught in the Church. Theism and atheism cannot coalesce to make anything. All truth in all spheres is organically one and vitally inseparable. It is impossible for different agencies independently to discuss and inculcate the religious and the purely naturalistic sides of truth (244,245).
I am as sure as I am of the fact of Christ's reign that a comprehensive and centralized system of national education separated from religion, as is now commonly proposed, will prove the most appalling enginery for the propagation of anti-Christian and atheistic unbelief, and of anti-social, nihilistic ethics, individual, social and political, which this sin-rent world has every seen (245).
Well, he was right. Too bad he wasn't taken seriously by Christians at the time.
So, the point here is that I believe the original inspiration of this country was Protestant and since I've given up all hope of ever getting back to it, I like entertaining this idea of splitting the nation up so that maybe one part of it could reclaim the original inspiration.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 01-28-2013 4:20 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 01-28-2013 3:51 PM Faith has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 204 of 384 (689100)
01-28-2013 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Faith
01-28-2013 4:20 AM


Re: Virtual States
Apparently, you are currently retired, whereas I still work for a living.
dwise1 writes:
Especially since your own particular Christianity is of later origin?
My beliefs are the same as theirs.
I very much doubt that.
Fundamentalism dates back around 1900. The Rapture a few decades around that.
Also, the Founding Fathers represented a range of beliefs. How could you possibly state that your beliefs are the same as theirs? Which specific Founding Father held the exact same belief as yours? And what is your documentation for that?
dwise1 writes:
And since the "founding inspiration of the country" is not your own particular flavor of Christianity, but rather something more derived from the Enlightenment?
No, I consider that to have been a betrayal of the Biblical faith that founded the nation.
Yet again, we would need to establish just what exactly the "biblical faith that founded the nation" was and how it was "betrayed". You have so far not done so.
dwise1 writes:
Especially considering the many new aspects to your theology that post-dates the Revolution?
Far as I know there are no "new aspects to my theology." I'm sure you have something in mind but I can't imagine what, nothing I'd consider essential no doubt and in fact probably sects I'd regard as apostate or cults.
Of course I'm thinking of the Fundamentals (circa 1900) and the Rapture (circa late 1800's), etc. Without a specific list, I am obviously at a disadvantage.
A definitive list on your part of your particular beliefs and of the particular beliefs of the Founding Fathers and how they match up item for item would definitely help in this discussion. Could you please provide that?
dwise1 writes:
Though your appeal to "Protestants" continues to imply some kind of uniformity that simply does not exist in any specific manner.
Not if you include everybody who claims the title (and I've been half expecting JAR to show up with his complaints about this, perhaps he will yet), but it does if you define it by objective standards of doctrine that date back to the Reformation. You can generally define it as "Bible believers," the faith that is based on the Bible as the one true authority.
Well now, isn't that your fundamental problem?
First, who has any authority at all to decide what is Protestant and what is not? Do you? Hell no! One of the defining characteristics of Protestants is that when they disagree with any particular theological point, they simply splinter off into yet another Protestant theology. Even if their particular Protestant theology does not agree with your own, it is still nonetheless a Protestant theology.
Interestingly, I had an encounter last night with a "Catholic Bible Believer" of the female persuasion. She was very firmly grounded on her Bible Believing theology. She was also puzzled about me, since I seemed to her to be of her theology whereas I stated that I was not. There appeared to be on her part an assumption that a sympathetic/empathetic position had to be "bible-based". There also appeared to have been an assumption that such a position had to imply an actual commitment to such a position. Of course, I have personally observed a pathelogical liar assume the "bible-believer" position and I have been my normal self and been mistaken for a "bible-believer" (something that I gave up about 50 years ago) or even a Mormon.
The rest doesn't even make an sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 01-28-2013 4:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 01-28-2013 5:23 AM dwise1 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 205 of 384 (689101)
01-28-2013 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by dwise1
01-28-2013 5:11 AM


Re: Virtual States
The Rapture is not an essential and i haven't decided if I believe it or notl.
Fundamentalism was an effort to reclaim the true faith from liberalism, that's all. It did succeed to some extent but also skewed a few things. Nevertheless they are within the bounds of true Protestant Bible believing faith although I don't consider myself part of their group.
When I read Whitefield or Edwards or even most of Wesley, or the Puritans, John Owens for instance or many others, I recognize them all as brothers in Christ teaching the same doctrines I believe. Not sure why outsiders have such a problem sorting it out.
Which "founding fathers" are you talkijng about? I certainly DON'T claim to share the beliefs of Washington, Adams, Jefferson and Franklin who were not Christians. But I do claim to share the beliefs of the true preachers, some of whom I've named above, and the original Puritans and Pilgrims.
Too tired to get into this more tonight.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by dwise1, posted 01-28-2013 5:11 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by dwise1, posted 01-28-2013 5:41 AM Faith has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 206 of 384 (689102)
01-28-2013 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Faith
01-28-2013 5:23 AM


Re: Virtual States
I guess it still boils down to the First Amendment.
Does it only apply to your own very particular Christian theology, to to every American?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 01-28-2013 5:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Faith, posted 01-28-2013 5:53 AM dwise1 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 207 of 384 (689103)
01-28-2013 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by dwise1
01-28-2013 5:41 AM


Re: Virtual States
I should have said the Rapture and Fundamentalism and perhaps you would also like to include Pentecostalism and the Charismatic Movement as new - I consider all these within the boundaries of true Protestant Christian belief. The gospel of salvation by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ's sacrifice alone is the defining doctrine and they all share that even if I may think they go off in wrong directions on secondary pointsl.
As for the first amendment, it SHOULD have protected this basic Protestant Christianity as the foundation of the nation. Since it didn't and such ideas are now aggressively rejected, this is why I would like to get out from under the views I reject and find a way to start all over.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by dwise1, posted 01-28-2013 5:41 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by dwise1, posted 01-28-2013 10:27 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 213 by Theodoric, posted 01-28-2013 12:27 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 215 by AZPaul3, posted 01-28-2013 12:31 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 208 of 384 (689111)
01-28-2013 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Faith
01-28-2013 4:40 AM


Re: Virtual States
Ok, you've dropped your claims that the Constitution is being misinterpreted or misapplied. You haven't pointed to any real impositions on your religious freedom.
All we're left with is your objections to other people having religious freedom.
quote:
A fair assessment of the beliefs of the majority of the time would have required that it definitely endorse what you call "my" religion, and the sad thing is that it SEEMED to do so to most Christians of that day and since then.
You may think that a tyranny of the majority is "fair" but enough of the Founding Fathers disagreed, that the Constitution was crafted to avoid such an outcome. I doubt that you'd agree with your own position if you felt that your people were a minority.
quote:
Why should it have been the official religion of the land? Because the prosperity and success of the nation depend on it. As long as the majority and general culture nevertheless remained Protestant the nation was blessed, but since it's been so vilified and marginalilzed in recent years, virtually eliminated, we're coming under God's judgment, possibly a really terrible judgment very soon.
Your superstitious fears hardly represent a good reason to destroy freedom in the U.S.A.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 01-28-2013 4:40 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 01-28-2013 4:01 PM PaulK has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 764 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(3)
Message 209 of 384 (689113)
01-28-2013 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Faith
01-28-2013 4:40 AM


Re: Virtual States
"Virtually eliminated??"
Faith, this country is saturated in your religion! Turn on a TV! Walk down a street!
Poor persecuted you.........

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 01-28-2013 4:40 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by AZPaul3, posted 01-28-2013 10:14 AM Coragyps has not replied
 Message 224 by Faith, posted 01-28-2013 4:04 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8564
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


(3)
Message 210 of 384 (689119)
01-28-2013 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Coragyps
01-28-2013 8:08 AM


Re: Virtual States
Poor persecuted you.........
Now, now, Coragyps, there is "persecuted" and then there is "persecuted."
Faith's persecution is that she and those who have like religious beliefs have to share the levers of governmental power with not-so-fundamentalist protestants, jews, atheists and ... eww ... them ... [shudder] catholics [/shudder]!
She and hers cannot just dictate all things to all segments of society especially when it comes to things like personal privacy (against - especially in your bedroom) and proselytising the public schools (for - but only so long as it is the "right" kind of proselytising by the "right" sect).
Treating Faith and her religious kin like normal, common citizens of a democratic, free society and away from absolute dictatorial control over every thought and action in society is a grave persecution indeed. Just think how it might look if everyone were treated like that as a matter of law. How sinful!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Coragyps, posted 01-28-2013 8:08 AM Coragyps has not replied

  
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