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Author Topic:   States petition for secession
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 60 days)
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 1 of 384 (679306)
11-13-2012 10:52 AM


According to the website https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions 30 states have begun petitions to secede from the United States of America. While most of the states were states that went to Romney in last week's election, there were a few states that were kind of surprising. These include both Colorado and Oregon.

This strikes me as very odd that so many people would want to act like petulant children over simply a loss of an election. It would take far more than President Obama to destroy our nation, even if that was his intended purpose. Also, all of these people are worried that Obama will ruin America and now they are actually going out of their way, taking steps to do that which they fear Obama will do. The lack of logic in these decisions seems quite telling to me.

Have the people that are signing these petitions completely given up on logical thinking or do they actually think that A. Secession will be smooth and simple (totally was in the Civil War, right?) and B. That fracturing the Union is the best way to strengthen the United States in what they feel are trying times?

I was thinking coffee house, but am amicable for any place that the topic ends up going.

PS - Texas is already at 60,000 signatures and only 25,000 are required for the White House to respond to the petition, so they should get an answer soon. I have a funny feeling it will be a resounding "No".


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. -Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. -Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. -Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing!
What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. -Robin Williams-

Replies to this message:
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 Message 5 by fearandloathing, posted 11-13-2012 11:51 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded
 Message 9 by Coragyps, posted 11-13-2012 12:02 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded
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 Message 23 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-13-2012 1:54 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12561
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 2 of 384 (679311)
11-13-2012 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
11-13-2012 10:52 AM


Coffee House threads don't need to be proposed and can be posted directly over there, but is this the same topic as We Need States? Is not just let me know and I'll move this over to Coffee House.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-13-2012 10:52 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

    
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 60 days)
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 3 of 384 (679314)
11-13-2012 11:05 AM


My Stance
Sorry, I forgot to really include my stance...

...I think that the people signing these petitions are personally whining and blatantly stating that they are not interested in working with each other to better the country. This idea has definitely not been thoroughly thought out! Breaking the Union in to multiple countries, each controlling their own destiny would be devastating to our country. If Mexico attacked Texas, how many of the states would rally to help this state that has controlled everyone's lives from afar? After all, they are the butt of a lot of jokes and now others would no longer feel obligated to help their fellow United Staters.

At this time, it is important to find ways that we can work together, not further ways to fracture ourselves. I understand that your religious views are important to you and I would never tell someone how to raise his or her child. However, I do not share these views, nor will I ever vote based on those views. However, I can reason through the religious arguments and find ideas that make sense to better the country. Compromise is the key to making our country work, not stubbornness and internal warring. Individuals requesting that states rip apart the Union are simply showing that they are unwilling to listen to reason and would rather say, "Forget everyone else in the World, as long as I am happy".

This is the opposite of the way our culture and our species should be moving. We should be looking for how we can get all of humanity working together, not continuing to break into more "Us" and "Thems"

@ Admin - No this is not the same as "We Need States". That topic is about whether all states should be abolished leaving local government and Federal government. This is about the actual requests made by individuals living in States to Seced and become a separate Country. If you could move to coffee house that would be great, I wanted to ensure that I did things properly and I always have read proposed new topics as the proper place to go. I shall amend this and only request to open threads when I need to in the future. Thank you!


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. -Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. -Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. -Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing!
What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. -Robin Williams-

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Panda, posted 11-13-2012 11:54 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded
 Message 41 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-14-2012 1:23 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12561
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 4 of 384 (679325)
11-13-2012 11:37 AM


Thread Moved from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 2097 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


(1)
Message 5 of 384 (679334)
11-13-2012 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
11-13-2012 10:52 AM


Anyone over the age of 13 can start a petition, no last name, just initial is required. I have seen names like Cee J signing the petitions which lead me to believe this is just a big ploy by the republicans to get a little more attention from the media while leading people to belive that there are plenty of people and states that want to secede. Many of the people signing these petitions are not even from the state that they are signing for. I didn't see any politicians supporting these petitions.

Smells like a big pile of BS to me.

Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.


“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
― Isaac Asimov

"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-13-2012 10:52 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-13-2012 12:06 PM fearandloathing has responded

    
Panda
Member (Idle past 1665 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 6 of 384 (679337)
11-13-2012 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
11-13-2012 11:05 AM


Re: My Stance
Just a guess, but if they ruin America then they can point at ruined America and say: "Look what Obama has done!!".

Also,
"Pressure Ethiopia to release Oromo Prisoners of Conscience, Bekele Gerba, Olbana Lelisa, Laggese Dhaba, Riqitu and Sisay": 282 signatures.
"Peacefully grant the State of Texas to withdraw from the United States of America and create its own NEW government.": 71436 signatures.
*sigh*

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-13-2012 11:05 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 7 of 384 (679338)
11-13-2012 12:01 PM


Secession.
It's very possible that the entity the United States of America has outlived its value, had its day in the sun and so like so many other empires in the past will dissolve, and if so, a peaceful dissolution would be preferable. The states so far that have filed such petitions are Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Jersey, New York, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, West Virginia and Wyoming.

Frankly, I would hope that the President's response would be, "If your state passes a resolution to secede I will support your position in Congress and before the SCOTUS. Should Congress and the SCOTUS agree that it could be done legally within our Constitution I will immediate recognize your state as a new nation and begin discussions with you on matters of trade, compensation for Federal Properties and facilities within the borders of your new nation, immigration and visa issues, establishing border entry and exit locations, tariffs, and other issues of mutual concern."


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2794
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(5)
Message 8 of 384 (679339)
11-13-2012 12:02 PM


I forget where I heard it but someone once said, If you want a socially conservative, weak central government without any regulations on guns. Move to Somalia.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5357
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.1


(3)
Message 9 of 384 (679340)
11-13-2012 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
11-13-2012 10:52 AM


It's purely a bunch of idjits who woke up Nov. 7 and realized "the n----- got re-elected!!1!! OMG!!!!"

We've got plenty more ignernt racist asswipes that call themselves "true conservatives" than just those 60,000 here in Texas. I work with a bunch of them every day.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-13-2012 10:52 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

    
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 60 days)
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 10 of 384 (679343)
11-13-2012 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by fearandloathing
11-13-2012 11:51 AM


fearandloathing writes:

Anyone over the age of 13 an start a petition, no last name, just initial is required. I have seen names like Cee J signing the petitions which lead me to believe this is just a big ploy by the republicans to get a little more attention from the media while leading people to belive that there are plenty of people and states that want to secede. Many of the people signing these petitions are not even from the state that they are signing for. I didn't see any politicians supporting these petitions.
Smells like a big pile of BS to me.

Yeah, I did not see any political connection either, and it seemed so ignorant that it should be fake. I have stopped giving so much leeway to the delusional though and find that there are people who probably do think this is a good idea. However, the fact that some people think this might be a great idea seems absolutely ludicrous to me.

The one that is for the State of Texas seems to be well written and lists the fact that Texas has the 15th highest economy in the world. Yet, Texas is not fiscally responsible for any of the items that are covered by the Federal Government. Remove them from the system and then Texas will have to manage these funds on their own. Also, talk about giving the shaft to all of the Veterans from a state that served the US military. All of the benefits they receive would probably disappear upon changing to citizenship of the country of Texas (I could be wrong on this, and benefits could remain with changing citizenship. Someone please correct me if benefits would still be available for the soldiers)...There are so many things that are done at the Federal level that it seems extremely unlikely that a single state would manage it very well.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. -Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. -Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. -Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing!
What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. -Robin Williams-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by fearandloathing, posted 11-13-2012 11:51 AM fearandloathing has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by fearandloathing, posted 11-13-2012 12:12 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded
 Message 12 by jar, posted 11-13-2012 12:14 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 2097 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 11 of 384 (679344)
11-13-2012 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
11-13-2012 12:06 PM


There are so many things that are done at the Federal level that it seems extremely unlikely that a single state would manage it very well.

I thought the same thing. I wonder how many retirees are willing to give up SS.


“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
― Isaac Asimov

"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-13-2012 12:06 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 12 of 384 (679345)
11-13-2012 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
11-13-2012 12:06 PM


Foreign Nationals
Also, talk about giving the shaft to all of the Veterans from a state that served the US military. All of the benefits they receive would probably disappear upon changing to citizenship of the country of Texas (I could be wrong on this, and benefits could remain with changing citizenship.

That would be up to the individual I imagine. I don't see any reason they could not maintain the status of a Foreign National residing in the Nation of Texas (or substitute any other ex-state) in which case they would receive the same benefits as they would if they had retired or taken up residency in any other country.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-13-2012 12:06 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-13-2012 12:17 PM jar has responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 60 days)
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 13 of 384 (679347)
11-13-2012 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
11-13-2012 12:14 PM


Re: Foreign Nationals
Okay, so if they chose to remain a US citizen, living in the country of Texas then Veteran's benefits could still be conferred but if they were to choose to join the citizenship of the country of Texas, renouncing US citizenship, then benefits are lost? Am I understanding that correctly now?

Also, if it were to happen, should build a wall around Texas to keep illegal immigrants from coming into the United States?


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. -Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. -Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. -Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing!
What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. -Robin Williams-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 11-13-2012 12:14 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 11-13-2012 12:24 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded
 Message 26 by dwise1, posted 11-13-2012 3:06 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 14 of 384 (679349)
11-13-2012 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
11-13-2012 12:17 PM


Re: Foreign Nationals
Okay, so if they chose to remain a US citizen, living in the country of Texas then Veteran's benefits could still be conferred but if they were to choose to join the citizenship of the country of Texas, renouncing US citizenship, then benefits are lost? Am I understanding that correctly now?

The details would be determined by the US Congress but I imagine it would be similar to whatever laws currently govern renouncing US citizenship.

Also, if it were to happen, should build a wall around Texas to keep illegal immigrants from coming into the United States?

Of course. There would have to be border patrol checkpoints just like there are between the US and Canada or Mexico. There would have to be visas; if for example should a Texan wish to visit New Mexico or family in Chicago they would need a valid passport and visa and go through US Customs.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-13-2012 12:17 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1139 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 15 of 384 (679351)
11-13-2012 12:28 PM


Didn't we already address this issue?
As much as it amuses me to consider ditching Texas/Florida/Alabama and a few other states...

I'm pretty sure we've already, as a nation, addressed the issue of secession with that "Civil War" thing a few years back. Quite a precedent set, that.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


Replies to this message:
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