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Author Topic:   Religions are fairy tales for adults. Should we encourage them to grow up?
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1382
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1 of 424 (766398)
08-04-2015 11:31 AM


Religions are fairy tales for adults. Should we encourage them to grow up?

My mind set is close to Daniel Dennett as far as what religious people / theist should become after they grow up.

Personally, I like a lot of the social functions and appeasement of our need for fellowship, hivishness and tribalism offered by religious institutions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5tGpMcFF7U

So I do not want to kill all religions but just encourage them to be more moral, tolerant and give equality to women and gays.

Having said the above, People and recent trends to read scriptures literally have cause many to forget that religions were invented as theatre and myth and were never meant to be read or taken literally. They were designed to seek God, not to find one.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

As you can see from the following, religions and temples have always been about entertainment and fellowship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7BHvN6rZZA

If Christianity and Islam could return to the old way of seeking God instead of idol worshiping false Gods, perhaps jihadists and other fundamental believers might chill and get along the way they have at some points in our past history.

Religions are fairy tales for adults. If this is a truth, we should encourage Christianity and Islam as well as all other religions to grow up and return to their better past of seeking God instead of idol worshiping Yahweh and Allah. Both of them are mythical and manmade Gods.

Regards
DL


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 08-16-2015 2:01 AM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 6 by Stile, posted 08-18-2015 8:58 AM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 08-18-2015 12:29 PM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 08-19-2015 5:16 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1792
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 424 (766399)
08-16-2015 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
08-04-2015 11:31 AM


Positive Truth Claim
GIA writes:

Religions are fairy tales for adults. If this is a truth, we should encourage Christianity and Islam as well as all other religions to grow up and return to their better past of seeking God instead of idol worshiping Yahweh and Allah. Both of them are mythical and manmade Gods.

This belief needs to be supported. You are stating Dennetts (and others) philosophy as if it is truth. Please support the assertion.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 08-04-2015 11:31 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Greatest I am, posted 08-17-2015 8:54 AM AdminPhat has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1382
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 3 of 424 (766400)
08-17-2015 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
08-16-2015 2:01 AM


Re: Positive Truth Claim
The Origen quote does that and if you think talking animals are not mythical and imaginary then you have a problem.

What you want come when dealing with objections. Not in the main body of a O.P.

Post the O.P. or not but it stays as is.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminPhat, posted 08-17-2015 7:07 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1792
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 4 of 424 (766401)
08-17-2015 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Greatest I am
08-17-2015 8:54 AM


Re: Positive Truth Claim
I mean't no disrespect, but will stand my ground on challenging you for two reasons.

First, we are in a Faith & Belief topic. A member can start a topic about pink unicorns, for all I care...as long as they state that it is a belief and not a fact. the same rules apply to atheists and gnostics.

The second reason i hesitate to promote your topic is because all of your topics are essentially the same thing.

I suppose I'm asking you what you expect your readers to do? What sort of argument do you intend to make--in a Faith/belief context?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Greatest I am, posted 08-17-2015 8:54 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1792
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 5 of 424 (766403)
08-17-2015 7:25 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Religions are fairy tales for adults. Should we encourage them to grow up? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

I suppose you pass the test...

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Greatest I am, posted 08-18-2015 9:11 AM AdminPhat has acknowledged this reply

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 2870
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 6 of 424 (766424)
08-18-2015 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
08-04-2015 11:31 AM


Make our own choices
Greatest I am writes:

Religions are fairy tales for adults.

Not exactly the wording I would choose, but I accept your idea.

Should we encourage them to grow up?

No.
We should encourage them to live life the way they want to.
(As long as they're not hurting others...)

So I do not want to kill all religions but just encourage them to be more moral, tolerant and give equality to women and gays.

Sounds good to me.

If Christianity and Islam could return to the old way of seeking God instead of idol worshiping false Gods, perhaps jihadists and other fundamental believers might chill and get along the way they have at some points in our past history.

Perhaps.
There are many things that *could* help people "chill" and get along the way they have at some points in our past history.
I don't think it should be a single pronged-approach.

I don't have an issue with this possible-solution, as long as the believers don't have an issue with it either. It's their belief... it's up to them to keep it or adopt it or change it or whatever.

If they insist on hurting others, I think the primary focus should be on stopping them from... hurting others. Not stopping-something-that-we-think-is-behind-their-mindset-in-the-hopes-that-it-could-stop-them from hurting others. Cut to the chase. There's no reason to guess that their belief is the driving mindset unless you have something fundamentally against the belief itself.

I don't have a problem with anyone's belief.
I only have a problem with people's actions... if they hurt others.
Therefore, I don't care about stopping beliefs... I only care about stopping hurtful actions.

Prevent/control the actions to keep people safe and equal, and the beliefs will change themselves or fade away.
Prevent/control the beliefs to keep people safe and equal... and things will not change or fade. In fact, violence will have a good shot of getting much stronger.

Fairness is a basic, instinctual concept.
No matter our beliefs, we understand that keeping people safe and equal is fair... those who oppose the idea are fighting the uphill battle.
Attack the beliefs... and that instinctual concept of fairness transfers from obvious physical equality into belief-intellectual equality... and the uphill battle shifts onto anyone attacking the beliefs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 08-04-2015 11:31 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Greatest I am, posted 08-18-2015 9:25 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1382
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 7 of 424 (766426)
08-18-2015 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by AdminPhat
08-17-2015 7:25 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Phat

Thanks for this.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by AdminPhat, posted 08-17-2015 7:25 PM AdminPhat has acknowledged this reply

    
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1382
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 8 of 424 (766427)
08-18-2015 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Stile
08-18-2015 8:58 AM


Re: Make our own choices
Stile

Thanks for the reply. Well put.

"I don't think it should be a single pronged-approach."

I agree. Education is one, debate and discussion is another which includes education.

-----------------

"I don't have an issue with this possible-solution, as long as the believers don't have an issue with it either. It's their belief... it's up to them to keep it or adopt it or change it or whatever."

Literal believers will always have a problem with changing their view. They do not even listen to their own church hierarchies. For instance, basically all the mainstream religions are recognizing evolution yet many believers ignore their hierarchies on this issue.

------------------

"If they insist on hurting others, I think the primary focus should be on stopping them from... hurting others."

I think the ongoing institutionalized homophobia and misogyny in Christianity and Islam are definitely hurting others. Hence my puny efforts to educate them.

How to get their ear is the hard part. Even as we speak, the Pope is moving the Catholic Church to the left but you would not know it from what the adherents are saying and doing.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Stile, posted 08-18-2015 8:58 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13031
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 9 of 424 (766440)
08-18-2015 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
08-04-2015 11:31 AM


Greatest I am writes:

Religions are fairy tales for adults. Should we encourage them to grow up?


No. Fiction is valuable and important for everybody.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 08-04-2015 11:31 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Greatest I am, posted 08-18-2015 1:05 PM ringo has responded

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1382
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 10 of 424 (766450)
08-18-2015 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
08-18-2015 12:29 PM


ringo

I agree, but the bit of fiction under discussion, the bible and Qur'an, have been used forever to discriminate against women and gays without a just cause.

Strange that you, a woman, would not be quick to condemn those books or prefer to have them read as pure myth.

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 08-18-2015 12:29 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13031
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 11 of 424 (766452)
08-18-2015 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Greatest I am
08-18-2015 1:05 PM


Greatest I am writes:

I agree, but the bit of fiction under discussion, the bible and Qur'an, have been used forever to discriminate against women and gays without a just cause.


Any fiction can be used for good or bad purposes. You can't eliminate bad things by telling people to just say no to fiction.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Greatest I am, posted 08-18-2015 1:05 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Greatest I am, posted 08-18-2015 1:17 PM ringo has responded

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1382
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 12 of 424 (766455)
08-18-2015 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
08-18-2015 1:08 PM


ringo

Correct, but when they are reading it in a way other than fiction, and giving it credence that push them to harm others without a just cause, then correcting their poor reading habits and beliefs would be quite good for society as a whole.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 08-18-2015 1:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 08-18-2015 1:24 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13031
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 13 of 424 (766457)
08-18-2015 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Greatest I am
08-18-2015 1:17 PM


Greatest I am writes:

Correct, but when they are reading it in a way other than fiction, and giving it credence that push them to harm others without a just cause, then correcting their poor reading habits and beliefs would be quite good for society as a whole.


You can't tell people to "correct" their reading habits. The people with the worst reading habits are the ones who are least likely to pay any attention to you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Greatest I am, posted 08-18-2015 1:17 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Greatest I am, posted 08-18-2015 1:30 PM ringo has responded

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1382
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 14 of 424 (766460)
08-18-2015 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
08-18-2015 1:24 PM


ringo

My social duty is to try to correct.

If the listener is blind and dumb there is nothing I can do but try.

For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.

I recognize that most theist are not even in their religions due to belief and they do not care to change anything.

I work for the odd person who will listen and convert.

It does not happen that often, in fact I have more success with lurkers than the actual person I chat with but on good days, like today, I have a woman who seems to be coming along after her and I had a bit of a rocky start.

Looks like there will be at least 1 less Mormon out there after today.

Happy days.

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 08-18-2015 1:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13031
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 15 of 424 (766461)
08-18-2015 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Greatest I am
08-18-2015 1:30 PM


Greatest I am writes:

For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.


Doing nothing may be bad but doing the wrong thing is worse.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Greatest I am, posted 08-18-2015 1:30 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Greatest I am, posted 08-18-2015 1:44 PM ringo has responded

  
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