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Author Topic:   GDR On Faith
jar
Member
Posts: 28702
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 16 of 78 (789594)
08-16-2016 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
08-16-2016 8:52 PM


Re: you have a very small God
But Jesus is not said to have quoted that part of Isaiah so it seems Jesus, at least as the author of Luke tells it, repudiates the vengeful critter Isaiah marketed.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 8:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 9:02 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 24502
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 17 of 78 (789596)
08-16-2016 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
08-16-2016 9:00 PM


Re: you have a very small God
But Jesus is not said to have quoted that part of Isaiah so it seems Jesus, at least as the author of Luke tells it, repudiates the vengeful critter Isaiah marketed.

I see. Pickers and choosers even have to make Jesus into a picker and chooser.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:00 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:06 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28702
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 18 of 78 (789597)
08-16-2016 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
08-16-2016 9:02 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Faith writes:

I see. Pickers and choosers even have to make Jesus into a picker and chooser.

Talk to whoever wrote the story. That is who put the words into the character Jesus mouth. And yes, it is quite clear that the authors of the various New Testament works very selectively picked passages from the Old Testament and used them out of context to create the mythos called Christianity.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 9:02 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 9:09 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 24502
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 19 of 78 (789598)
08-16-2016 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
08-16-2016 9:06 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Talk to whoever wrote the story. That is who put the words into the character Jesus mouth. And yes, it is quite clear that the authors of the various New Testament works very selectively picked passages from the Old Testament and used them out of context to create the mythos called Christianity.

Funny they chose to "create" a Jesus who would "repudiate" the part of Isaiah 61 about His mission of vengeance, but then wrote the passages in 2 Thessalonians and Revelation about His coming with His angels in flaming fire to take vengeance on His enemies, and even watch the tormenting of His enemies with fire and brimstone. You'd think even fallen men would have the ability to write something more consistent than that.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:06 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:18 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28702
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 20 of 78 (789599)
08-16-2016 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
08-16-2016 9:09 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Yes, I agree. The many contradictions found in the Bible are funny but also understandable. While I do not believe there is any such thing as fallen man, I do acknowledge that the stories reflect the changing beliefs and creations of the people who wrote, edited, redacted, translated and complied the various stories.

AbE: Of course all of that is simply more evidence that the Bible is the product of humans and reflects the personal biases of all of the unknown and unheralded people involved in it's creation.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 9:09 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 9:25 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24502
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 21 of 78 (789600)
08-16-2016 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
08-16-2016 9:18 PM


Re: you have a very small God
And of course the generations upon generations of people who believed the Bible just as written, as God's true revelation, all those great theologians like Augustine and the Church Fathers and so on down the centuries were just gullible mo*rons who hallucinated its consistency and supernatural coherence and were too stu*pid to recognize all those contradictions you find in it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:18 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:35 PM Faith has responded

    
Coyote
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Posts: 5683
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 22 of 78 (789601)
08-16-2016 9:32 PM


St. Augustine???
This St. Augustine???

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of the world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion [quoting 1 Tim 1:7].

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 9:36 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28702
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 23 of 78 (789602)
08-16-2016 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
08-16-2016 9:25 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Faith writes:

And of course the generations upon generations of people who believed the Bible just as written, as God's true revelation, all those great theologians like Augustine and the Church Fathers and so on down the centuries were just gullible mo*rons who hallucinated its consistency and supernatural coherence and were too stu*pid to recognize all those contradictions you find in it.

I doubt you can show where I called anyone gullible morons or stupid, rather they were quite bright and evolving and creating a product. Many worked actively to try to figure out ways to slip around those errors, contradictions, fallacies and fantasies which they too realized and thus the profession of Apologetics was created.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 9:25 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 9:39 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24502
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 24 of 78 (789603)
08-16-2016 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Coyote
08-16-2016 9:32 PM


Re: St. Augustine???
I didn't say the Church Fathers were perfect, and Augustine got some things wrong, but in general they recognized the Bible as God's true word. Only the Bible's writers themselves are said to be inspired by God.

As the different books of the New Testament were being written and copied and circulated among the far-flung churches, they were judged on their authenticity and inspiration by the elders of the churches. A consensus emerged eventually that became the basis of the canons proposed by the various Councils.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 22 by Coyote, posted 08-16-2016 9:32 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
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Posts: 24502
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 25 of 78 (789604)
08-16-2016 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
08-16-2016 9:35 PM


Re: you have a very small God
The main characteristic of believers down the centuries is the fear of God, which would keep them from daring to treat God's word as a mere human creation, or to "market" anything of their own invention in its place.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:35 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:46 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28702
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 26 of 78 (789605)
08-16-2016 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
08-16-2016 9:39 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Faith writes:

The main characteristic of believers down the centuries is the fear of God, which would keep them from daring to treat God's word as a mere human creation, or to "market" anything of their own invention in its place.

Yes, there sadly are people who hold such beliefs, that a fear should drive the relationship with GOD.

Much of the Old Testament creates the image of the Evil God who must be feared. But such a small picayune God really should be pitied rather than feared and opposed rather than worshiped.

But that fortunately is not the only God Christianity markets and certainly not the only character described as Jesus. Except of course in some of the passages when Jesus is speaking about those who claim to be his followers like the goats in Matthew 25.

I have hopes though that those who market the God of Vengeance who should be feared will in the end be forgiven even if they are expected to attend a Christianity 101 level course.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 9:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 9:49 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24502
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 27 of 78 (789606)
08-16-2016 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
08-16-2016 9:46 PM


Re: you have a very small God
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

I'm quite sure you haven't a clue what the fear of God even means.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:46 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 10:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 28 of 78 (789607)
08-16-2016 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
08-16-2016 8:20 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Faith writes:

No, you are reducing Jesus to suit your fallen mind by refusing to accept the whole word of God.


No Faith, it is you by replacing Jesus with an inerrant Bible that is rejecting the whole Word of God.

Faith writes:

What do you do with the NT passages that describe Jesus as that vengeful God?


This is typical Jewish apocalyptic language. I am not saying that there isn’t a price to pay when we live a life where we are self focused and unconcerned about the lives of others. We can see this in our world today.

Those that are in the end happiest and most content are those who do genuinely care for the concerns of others in general. Those that are always concerned with their own interest, even at the expense of others create their own hell in this world and the next. In the end we choose, as in Matthew 25 in the sheep and the goats parable, to serve others, or to have our own self interest as our only concern. There will be those in the end who are unable to give up their pride, greed etc and will reject the life that God offers when all things are renewed.

I know that you and Tangle aren't huge CS Lewis fans but he says this:

quote:
“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”

So yes, there is retribution but we impose it on ourselves.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 8:20 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 29 of 78 (789608)
08-16-2016 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
08-16-2016 8:00 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Phat writes:

Although keep in mind that John tells us that Jesus is the Word made Flesh.

Yes, the Word or Wisdom of God that existed before time as we know it was embodied in Jesus so that if we want to understand the nature of God then that is where we turn.

Phat writes:

Critics would accuse me of picking and choosing which words to use.

Every Christian does. Faith doesn't argue for genocide or public stonings. She would rationalize it away I presume by saying it was necessary then but not now. I'm curious as to how she thinks God would want to use public stoning by the community for someone picking up firewood on the sabbath, or for difficult kids then, but presumably, (maybe I'm wrong here), wouldn't see it done for some of the heinous things have happening today.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 08-16-2016 8:00 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 1:04 AM GDR has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28702
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 30 of 78 (789609)
08-16-2016 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
08-16-2016 9:49 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Nice bumper stickers.

But sorry, but the small little picayune gods you market and worshiping the Bible as though it were not the work of man when in fact that there is no such thing as "The Bible™" just diminishes the whole value of Jesus message.

You are of course free to hold such beliefs and even try to market them But I'm not a buyer.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 9:49 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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