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Author Topic:   GDR On Faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 46 of 78 (789671)
08-17-2016 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
08-17-2016 6:51 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Faith writes:

ONE response and then I hope to leave you to your errors.

Of course, because there is no satisfactory answer to the problems that I raised.

Faith writes:

You wonder what sins your friend committed to deserve MS and cancer. Wasn't I clear that we INHERIT sins and punishments? She may personally have committed nothing to bring on her diseases.

So I assume you mean that it is a result of sin somewhere in her family history. I am so grateful that God is not at all like you understand Him to be.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 6:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 7:51 PM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 47 of 78 (789672)
08-17-2016 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by GDR
08-17-2016 7:30 PM


Re: you have a very small God
I guess you missed the previous post which shows that even pagan philosophers have recognized that God's Law operates in the ways you condemn from your height of superior morality.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 7:30 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 8:33 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29032
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 48 of 78 (789673)
08-17-2016 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
08-17-2016 7:08 PM


Re: Even pagan philosophers knew God's Law is slow, exact and inherited
Faith writes:

The windmills of God grind exceeding fine.

ABE: By the way, I looked it up and found its source is pagan philosophy, which is acknowledging both that God's judgment may take a long time in coming -- The saying is actually: "The mills of God grind slowly but they grind exceeding fine" -- but exact (implying fulfillment to jot and tittle). So it's not a Christian concept, it's another of those recognitions of the Law of God by pagans, like karma that I already mentioned. God's Law is recognized by many peoples as both slow and precise. "Ancestral" sins are also mentioned in the article, implying that pagan philosophers also knew that we inherit sin.

No one questions that over time people created Gods that should be feared and that is also what is reflected in much of the Old Testament. A great example is the God character created by the author or authors of Exodus. The God character found in Exodus is a real prick certainly unworthy of worship and like any deranged despot rightly feared.

Hopefully though people today are more moral than that character.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 7:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 12:01 PM jar has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 49 of 78 (789675)
08-17-2016 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
08-17-2016 7:51 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Faith writes:

I guess you missed the previous post which shows that even pagan philosophers have recognized that God's Law operates in the ways you condemn from your height of superior morality.

To be honest Faith it shows just how shallow your position is that at this point in the discussion this is what you come up with.

Here is the definition from your link.

quote:
The proverbial expression of the mills of God grinding slowly refers to the notion of slow but certain divine retribution.

What has that got to do with God ordering the people He has chosen to commit genocide and public stoning. If God wants retribution for sin why doesn't He do it himself? It is interesting that you are now invoking followers of Zeuss to make your point. Yes believers in Zeuss did expect divine retribution in this life but they had a very different idea of what constituted sin than what we see in Jesus. Remember that it is the law of love that is the basis for all the law and the prophets.

It appears that not only do you give more credit to ancient Jewish thinkers, but to the thinking of followers of other faiths or no faith, than you do to what Jesus said.

That link adds nothing to the discussion. Sure when we reject selflessness for selfishness we and others pay a price for those choices that we make. We can see that happening without invoking God at all.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 7:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 08-18-2016 1:08 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 78 (789692)
08-18-2016 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by GDR
08-17-2016 8:33 PM


Re: you have a very small God
You slammed the idea of divine retribution as an evil made-up Christian thing, so I thought that showing that the idea isn't merely Christian ought to make some difference.

Obviously it doesn't.

My mistake.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 8:33 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 11:58 AM Faith has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9428
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 51 of 78 (789703)
08-18-2016 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
08-18-2016 1:08 AM


Re: you have a very small God
In my mind, Divine Retribution was common in Old Testament times because that was the dispensation of that time. LAW. If any nation or people break the rules, death was the prescription. War is Hell.

However, in the Age Of Grace, I would think that GDR has a point in that it no longer applies, thanks to Jesus. Remember He died for everyone...not just believers.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 08-18-2016 1:08 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 08-18-2016 12:15 PM Phat has responded
 Message 55 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 12:52 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9428
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 52 of 78 (789705)
08-18-2016 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
08-17-2016 8:21 PM


Re: Even pagan philosophers knew God's Law is slow, exact and inherited
Hopefully though people today are more moral than that character.

Christians today---in the Age Of Grace--have done horrendous things to other people and cultures and their is no excuse for their actions. There should be no such thing as retribution in the times of turn the other cheek.. And by the way, the "God character" created us long before we imagined Him. (or Her, for those who believe God has no gender! )


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 08-17-2016 8:21 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 78 (789706)
08-18-2016 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
08-18-2016 11:58 AM


Re: you have a very small God
OK, Phat, then how do YOU explain the two NEW TESTAMENT scriptures I posted about Jesus Second Coming in vengeance against His enemies?

ABE: Here:

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Revelation 14:9-10 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb....

{I asked Phat, jar, I know your answer, I would like to hear Phat's.)

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 11:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 08-18-2016 12:21 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29032
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 54 of 78 (789707)
08-18-2016 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
08-18-2016 12:15 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Faith writes:

OK, Phat, then how do YOU explain the two NEW TESTAMENT scriptures I posted about Jesus Second Coming in vengeance against His enemies?

It's really simple. That is what the authors of those passages believed and tried to market. Those are very common attributes of the different Gods people of various ages created.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 08-18-2016 12:15 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 55 of 78 (789712)
08-18-2016 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
08-18-2016 11:58 AM


Re: you have a very small God
Phat writes:

In my mind, Divine Retribution was common in Old Testament times because that was the dispensation of that time. LAW. If any nation or people break the rules, death was the prescription. War is Hell.
However, in the Age Of Grace, I would think that GDR has a point in that it no longer applies, thanks to Jesus. Remember He died for everyone...not just believers.

That isn't quite my point Phat. The rain falls on the good and the bad. We all die. It is bad enough that Faith believes that God would intentionally kill off a whole community Himself, or create a flood that kills everyone but one family but to also demand that His chosen people do the dirty work for Him, particularly considering the psychological damage it would do to them.

Just read through Matthew 5-7, the "Sermon on the Mount", and see just how many corrections of the OT that Jesus makes. He repudiates "an eye for eye and a tooth for a tooth" that comes from Exodus 21:24 for example.

Here is a quote from Matthew 19:

quote:
‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” 8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Neither Jesus nor the Pharisees said that the command about divorce came from God but from Moses. Jesus also says that "it was not this way FROM THE BEGINNING". He is saying that Moses got it wrong. It wasn't that this was part of a new covenant but that it always like this.

Fundamentalists like to rationalize away the genocides and public stonings in the OT by saying that with Jesus we have a new agreement. Baloney. Jesus doesn't say that as we can see in the above quote. The loving forgiving God can be just as easily found in the OT as can the vengeful and cruel God that we see there as well. (Just read my signature.)

God was always just, loving and forgiving. He didn't just all of a sudden change. Jesus made it clear as to what was of God in the OT and what wasn't. We are Christians and we are to follow the teachings of Jesus. He is the Word of God. Yes all scripture is useful for teaching, correcting and training in righteousness. We can learn from everything in the scriptures but that is not to say that it is inerrant. When we read about genocide and public stoning through the lens of what Jesus taught we can see that how easy it is to turn to the dark side for own reasons and turn away from the values that come through Jesus. It is Jesus that fully represents the nature of God. Not an inerrant Bible which is why I suggest that Faith is worshipping a false idol.

God is eternal. He isn't restricted to one dimension of time. He was the same 3500 years ago, 2000 years ago and today. He wasn't genocidal then and He isn't now.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 11:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:43 PM GDR has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6632
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 56 of 78 (789715)
08-18-2016 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by GDR
08-16-2016 7:34 PM


Re: Credibility
GDR writes:

If it weren't so we would have absolute knowledge and we would largely lose our freedom to choose.

I have never understood this argument. For all intents and purposes, my parents are my creators. Funny thing is, they made their existence really, really obvious. They didn't leave vague writings through intermediaries and hide their existence from me. They often tell me exactly what they think in language that is very specific. Did they take away my free will or any "freedom to choose"? Not at all. I am still free to do what I want, to heed their advice or not heed it. I don't see how any freedom or choices were taken from my by knowing that my parents really exist.

And what is this "freedom to choose"? Do people refrain from looking into the sky so that their freedom to choose in the existence of the Moon isn't robbed from them? The "freedom of choice" you seem to be talking about sounds a lot more like "wallowing in our ignorance".

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 7:34 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 6:44 PM Taq has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9428
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 57 of 78 (789733)
08-18-2016 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by GDR
08-18-2016 12:52 PM


Re: you have a very small God
GDR writes:

God was always just, loving and forgiving. He didn't just all of a sudden change. Jesus made it clear as to what was of God in the OT and what wasn't. We are Christians and we are to follow the teachings of Jesus. He is the Word of God. Yes all scripture is useful for teaching, correcting and training in righteousness. We can learn from everything in the scriptures but that is not to say that it is inerrant. When we read about genocide and public stoning through the lens of what Jesus taught we can see that how easy it is to turn to the dark side for own reasons and turn away from the values that come through Jesus.
It is Jesus that fully represents the nature of God. Not an inerrant Bible which is why I suggest that Faith is worshiping a false idol.

The Dispensationalist teachers largely agree with you. The principles of God never change.

Stam writes:

A principle, as we have used the word above, is a settled rule of morality or conduct. We respect men with principles; men who stand for the right,

whatever the cost. God, of course, has the very highest principles and never

deviates from them. He always did and always will hate sin. Sin always was and

always will be contrary to His holy nature. In no age has this been any less so

than in any other age.

In like manner, God always did and always will delight in righteousness, mercy

and love. God never has and never will deviate in the slightest degree from these

principles. The principle of law or justice, for example, has continued unchanged

through the ages. No matter what the dispensation, when wrong is done God's

sense of justice is offended. This may be simply demonstrated by three Scriptural
examples:

  • Cain lived before the dispensation of the law by Moses. Cain murdered his
    brother Abel. Was this right or wrong? Did he get into trouble over it? He did,
    although the written law had not yet been given.

  • David lived under the law of Moses. He also committed murder. Was this
    right or wrong? Wrong, of course, and he also got into trouble over it.

  • You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. Suppose we
    should commit murder, would that be right or wrong? Would we get into trouble
    over it - with God? Would the fact that Christ bore our sins on Calvary, make
    murder any more right? Would God look upon it as less sinful because it took
    place under the dispensation of grace?

    You say, in the case of the true believer today, the full legal penalty for the
    sin would still have been borne by Christ and, though he knew it not, David too
    was forgiven on this ground. But does not the very fact that David's sins and
    ours were paid for, rather than overlooked, prove that the principles of law and
    justice remain fixed?

    The principle of grace is equally unchangeable. This may be simply

    demonstrated by one passage of Scripture: Rom. 4:1-6
    Abraham lived before the dispensation of the law. How was he justified?
    "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom.
    4:3).
    David lived under the law. How was he justified? "David also describeth the
    blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works"
    (Rom. 4:6).
    You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. How are we
    justified? "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the

    ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Rom. 4:5).

  • Jar and others take note. Christianity may well be about what we do but note:

    Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation,
    whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear
    from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially
    by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 55 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 12:52 PM GDR has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 60 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 7:20 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9428
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 2.0


    Message 58 of 78 (789734)
    08-18-2016 3:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
    08-18-2016 12:15 PM


    Re: you have a very small God
    I would argue that at the time this is to be fulfilled, the Church is no longer on the earth. There are no righteous people left...only stubborn ones who do what is right in their own eyes.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 53 by Faith, posted 08-18-2016 12:15 PM Faith has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 61 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 7:24 PM Phat has responded

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 4240
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005


    Message 59 of 78 (789744)
    08-18-2016 6:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 56 by Taq
    08-18-2016 1:05 PM


    Re: Credibility
    Taq writes:

    I have never understood this argument. For all intents and purposes, my parents are my creators. Funny thing is, they made their existence really, really obvious. They didn't leave vague writings through intermediaries and hide their existence from me. They often tell me exactly what they think in language that is very specific. Did they take away my free will or any "freedom to choose"? Not at all. I am still free to do what I want, to heed their advice or not heed it. I don't see how any freedom or choices were taken from my by knowing that my parents really exist.

    And what is this "freedom to choose"? Do people refrain from looking into the sky so that their freedom to choose in the existence of the Moon isn't robbed from them? The "freedom of choice" you seem to be talking about sounds a lot more like "wallowing in our ignorance".

    The point is that for centuries people who have believed in a god(s) have always for their own benefit wanted to be on the right side of their god(s). If we had clarity about God then it would be difficult to choose to do the right thing just because it's the right thing as opposed to doing it to get on the right side of God.

    From a Christian perspective that is where the reformers started emphasizing grace, so that by faith you are right with God so that it wasn't about trying to earn God's favour. Personally I have a problem with that as well because it has become largely about the idea that if you give intellectual assent to the idea that Jesus is Lord, turning faith into a work. That is 180 degrees out from what Jesus taught.

    I think that the Gospels are pretty clear. It is about the heart. Do we make the choice to love selfishly or unselfishly. If we had absolute certainty about the desires of God then it is hard to love unselfishly or even sacrificially if we had certainty that this would put us in good with God. With the ambiguity we are able to freely develop hearts that love unselfishly by faith in the idea that the loving thing is simply the right thing to do.


    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by Taq, posted 08-18-2016 1:05 PM Taq has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 75 by Taq, posted 08-23-2016 2:00 PM GDR has responded

        
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 4240
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005


    Message 60 of 78 (789747)
    08-18-2016 7:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
    08-18-2016 3:43 PM


    Re: you have a very small God
    Phat writes:

    The Dispensationalist teachers largely agree with you. The principles of God never change.

    It's people that change. There are a number of things that the dispensationalists believe though where I think they are way off base, particularly in their eschatological beliefs.

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:43 PM Phat has not yet responded

        
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