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Author | Topic: Still small voice of God found | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Tangle writes: Yes, it's exactly like that. At the moment I'm trying to get you to talk about what's happening at the lightbulb - the generator is a different problem altogether. I'm allowing you a god given generator for the process of evolution, I'm trying to understand why you seem to be talking about empathy being driven by a different and supernatural process. OK, so you are conceding the idea of a prime mover although you are actually agnostic on the point yourself. As part of that idea that we might also believe that the prime mover could have planned at the beginning, an evolving sense of right and wrong leading to empathy as part of the evolutionary process. Actually I believe that to be the case although I would think it is done more through Dawkin's memes than I do through biology, and from what you've said I think that you would agree with that. This is essentially the point I was trying to make in the other thread. However, again I do believe more than that, and for this I concede that it is primarily by belief and secondarily through experience, This is where we do really come apart on our conclusions. I do believe that in subtle ways, that we can't directly perceive, God does touch our hearts and minds. This is part of my faith for which I can present no evidence that would resonate with the non-theistic community.
Tangle writes: Traced back to god directly - ie he's intervening minute by minute with our lives? or indirectly by kicking off evolution billions of years ago on a path that he knew would give us these traits? When we look at that picture, what do you think is happening to us? Are we reacting naturally or is there supernatural intervention making us feel sorry for the guy andmaking us want to help him? I know that this sounds like a cop-out but I think it is all of the above. I want to emphasize that I really mean it is what I "think". I don't "know" the answer. As I've said in other threads my fundamental belief as a theist is that God is always, good, loving, kind and just and that He wants us as humans to reflect those qualities into the world. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: If it helps, let's be specific, when you see a picture like this, is it god telling you to feel sorry for this person and want to help or is it a universal human reflex that's built into us - something we can't help? When you see people who are prepared to blow themselves up in order to kill others including children then at the very least I would say that it isn't universal. For those of us that it does touch, I contend that one way or another it touches us because the ability to love is a gift that comes from God, no matter how He did it. I suggest also that it is a gift we can reject.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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ringo writes:
No. I'm theistic so I believe that there is an intelligent designer but I do not agree with "Intelligent Design" the political movement. They have corrupted a self-explanatory phrase and turned it into a movement to discredit evolution. So you're just preaching Intelligent Design, which is just another form of creationism.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: OK, so you are conceding the idea of a prime mover although you are actually agnostic on the point yourself. To be clear, I gave you a prime mover only for the purpose of the argument. My personal position is that we do not know and may never know but I believe (proper use of the word) that there isn't/wasn't one.
As part of that idea that we might also believe that the prime mover could have planned at the beginning, an evolving sense of right and wrong leading to empathy as part of the evolutionary process. Actually I believe that to be the case although I would think it is done more through Dawkin's memes than I do through biology, and from what you've said I think that you would agree with that. This is essentially the point I was trying to make in the other thread. There is no difference between this position and an absence of god as the initiator. Remove god and nothing about the outcome changes, so we can set this aside (for the purpose of the argument.) But as a matter of pure fact, empathy is a physical emotion that we are born with just like all our others. To some degree it can and is changed in a positive or negative way by our upbringing, but if there is a defect, it can not be added - hence sociopaths and pyschopaths.
However, again I do believe more than that, and for this I concede that it is primarily by belief and secondarily through experience, This is where we do really come apart on our conclusions. I do believe that in subtle ways, that we can't directly perceive, God does touch our hearts and minds. This is part of my faith for which I can present no evidence that would resonate with the non-theistic community. Ok. I'm forced to dismiss it then. So we're left with a pure belief unsupported by any evidence at all. That at least honest but 1) we have strong measurable evidence of how empathy - and other emotions - actually works in people and other related animals 2) the claim is that god is intervening routinely and in real time with our physical bodies. If this was the case we should see it. Read the first post again. When the scientists are doing things like this....
quote: ...is god making interventions by miraculously triggering reactions in the subgenual anterior cingulate? If so why is he doing it less in some more in others and not at all in a few? And to what end? And are we not then puppets in his strings?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: When you see people who are prepared to blow themselves up in order to kill others including children then at the very least I would say that it isn't universal. We KNOW it isn't universal. We can measure and test for it. The people lacking empathy are called sociopaths and pychopaths. But the people who blow themselves up are not suffering from pycopathy - they're suffering a religious delusion. They have been taught to believe that those they kill are not human - they're infidels and heretics and therefore outside of their empathetic systems. You can't feel sorry for them because they are 'other'. But it's more complicated - you also have to put yourself in the future imagining the suffering that's been caused in order to feel sympathy. In this case the bomber is thinking not of that but of being at god's right hand and basking in the eternal light. In other worlds, totally deluded - all normal human feelings put into suspension.
For those of us that it does touch, I contend that one way or another it touches us because the ability to love is a gift that comes from God, no matter how He did it. Touch? We either have the ability to empathise or we don't. The vast majority do.
I suggest also that it is a gift we can reject. This 'gift' is actually an evolved trait, just like all the rest. But you are correct to say that we can reject it. Just like we can feel anger without killing, lust without raping - and suicide bomb without concern who you kill. Emotions are reflexive. We can't stop feeling them but our rational mind can modify our reaction to them. Those that kill others do it for many reasons - when your country dropped the A bomb twice on Japan it did it for complex competing and very human reasons and despite our knowledge of the devastating human consequencies. When we saw the picture of the napalmed girl in the Vietnam war we all instinctively cried out for her - only a psycopath couldn't. But the war continued. Our evolved brain has both primitive and automatic functions and the later developed cognative functions that overcome them. You have your target incorrectly identified. Empathy is a primitive reflex developed in other primates and lower order animals, we are the only species that is able to override those reflexes with conscious thought of cause and effect. If you must plant your god somewhere in us it's in the prefrontal cortex where executive processing and cognitive functioning occurs. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
GDR writes: That's what gets me to know that a lot of religious people talk nonsense. Trying to provide evidence for 'prime movers' more that 13 billion years ago doesn't provide any evidence that any forms of the 'prime movers' exist today. At all. OK, so you are conceding the idea o a prime mover although you are actually agnostic on the point yourself. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
That's a pretty fine distinction - like saying you like everything about Donald Trump except his socks.
I'm theistic so I believe that there is an intelligent designer but I do not agree with "Intelligent Design" the political movement. GDR writes:
It isn't self-explanatory; it's an empty catch-phrase.
They have corrupted a self-explanatory phrase....
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: I think that's what I said but if it wasn't clear that's what I meant.
To be clear, I gave you a prime mover only for the purpose of the argument. My personal position is that we do not know and may never know but I believe (proper use of the word) that there isn't/wasn't one. Tangle writes: It seems to me that when a child is born it really doesn't have anything more than a survival instinct, primarily the need to be fed. I would think that the child's emotional development starts pretty much right away after birth and starts to receive love, or possibly an absence of love which starts off the emotional development. But as a matter of pure fact, empathy is a physical emotion that we are born with just like all our others. To some degree it can and is changed in a positive or negative way by our upbringing, but if there is a defect, it can not be added - hence sociopaths and pyschopaths. I agree that there can be a defect that causes psychopathic behaviour but I also think that this can come about through abuse or other triggers.
Tangle writes: But there are also scientists that do believe that God touches our heart so it isn't all that cut and dried. We both gravitate towards the ones that agree with our own position. When the scientists are doing things like this.... I am not going to debate about something that I have no idea of how to even pronounce.
Tangle writes: If so why is he doing it less in some more in others and not at all in a few? And to what end? And are we not then puppets in his strings? We are not puppets as we can observe, (on the assumption that my position is correct), people do respond to a large extent or to virtually no extent at all. We are free to reject it completely.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: Those that kill others do it for many reasons - when your country dropped the A bomb twice on Japan it did it for complex competing and very human reasons and despite our knowledge of the devastating human consequencies. When we saw the picture of the napalmed girl in the Vietnam war we all instinctively cried out for her - only a psycopath couldn't. But the war continued. Our evolved brain has both primitive and automatic functions and the later developed cognative functions that overcome them. First off, I'm Canadian. There is nothing there though that I don't agree with. I just don't see that as either supportive of either the theistic or the atheistic position.
Tangle writes: You have your target incorrectly identified. Empathy is a primitive reflex developed in other primates and lower order animals, we are the only species that is able to override those reflexes with conscious thought of cause and effect. If you must plant your god somewhere in us it's in the prefrontal cortex where executive processing and cognitive functioning occurs. Fair enough, but as I said in another thread there is a big difference between feeling empathy for the starving children in Africa for example and actually doing something about it that negatively affects our own situation. Some people will feel empathy and say "isn't that awful"; some will donate financially and maybe even enough that they keep the old car instead of buying a new one, and some, like some of the doctors I know, actually travel there risking there own health in order to help out. There is a difference between feeling empathy and actually doing something sacrificially.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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ringo writes: There is the "Intelligent Design" movement which purports to be scientific and argues against evolutionary theory. I mean it only in the sense that we are the result of an intelligent designer without suggesting any methodology as to how it was done, and without suggesting that it is science based. That's a pretty fine distinction - like saying you like everything about Donald Trump except his socks.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: It seems to me that when a child is born it really doesn't have anything more than a survival instinct, primarily the need to be fed. I would think that the child's emotional development starts pretty much right away after birth and starts to receive love, or possibly an absence of love which starts off the emotional development. That's just what you want to believe and of course it's at best only partially true. Empathy is a built in part of us like all emotions and depends on upbringing and environment to determine its development. All, of course, human provided.
quote: I agree that there can be a defect that canuses psychopathic behaviour but I also think that this can come about through abuse or other triggers. Why do you 'think' that when we actually know some of these things? Pyschopathy is largely genetic and their brains are structurally different. Did god make their brains different deliberately?
quote: But there are also scientists that do believe that God touches our heart so it isn't all that cut and dried. We both gravitate towards the ones that agree with our own position. Now that is total rubbish. Science deals with observations. There are no scientists observing god intervening in people's emotions. But if you can find one, I'd be very interested. Pointing to research that supports a line of argument is not cherry picking, it's how science works. The fact that you can't support your argument with similar evidence should tell you something.
We are not puppets as we can observe, (on the assumption that my position is correct), people do respond to a large extent or to virtually no extent at all. We are free to reject it completely. If this god of yours IS directly intervening, sometimes strongly, sometimes weakly, sometimes not at all but randomly - which is what we know happens in life - he's the worst kind of puppetmaster, he's just tormenting us. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: Fair enough, but as I said in another thread there is a big difference between feeling empathy for the starving children in Africa for example and actually doing something about it that negatively affects our own situation. Some people will feel empathy and say "isn't that awful"; some will donate financially and maybe even enough that they keep the old car instead of buying a new one, and some, like some of the doctors I know, actually travel there risking there own health in order to help out. Yes there is and I'm trying to get you to make the distinction between the reflexive feeling of empathy - the thing that creates the desire to help - and the decision to do something about it or not.
There is a difference between feeling empathy and actually doing something sacrificially. Correct. They're seperate processes. Both are beginning to be understood. Nothing points to external intervention. Everything points to physical and environmental factors.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Well, you're arguing against evolutionary theory by bringing God into it. Superfluous additions to reality are just as bad as denying reality.
There is the "Intelligent Design" movement which purports to be scientific and argues against evolutionary theory.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: Oh how we love to argue! Well, you're arguing against evolutionary theory by bringing God into it. Superfluous additions to reality are just as bad as denying reality. So tell me why evolutionary theory couldn't be factual with God as a reality? Seems to me that God is not only outside of the box but made the very box possible. That being said, I will agree with the argument that says that God is un necessary to explain evolution. Thats as far as I will go. I am not prepared to support the idea that God is un necessary period...nor should you, Ringo. Being agnostic is enough for you to handle. Atheism is an unnecessary step.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Nothing points to external intervention. Nothing in your mind, perhaps. But you want it that way. I have a theory--in general,not about you personally. Humans that believe in anything prefer their beliefs to be agreeable to themselves.Humans do not want/need or have to believe in something disagreeable. My premise is that GOD is agreeable to some and disagreeable to others. I would expect that this by and large determines their stance on His possible/probable existence. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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