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Author Topic:   Welfare - what is it and who benefits
RAZD
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Posts: 18669
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 16 of 70 (797199)
01-14-2017 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by NoNukes
01-12-2017 2:51 PM


What would be the point of such a classification? What if it turned out that 50% of married women were stay-at-home moms? Would that be a bad thing?

No, that is why I said they should be counted as underemployed -- they don't get full compensation for being a child caregiver ... tax breaks are minimal, and even professional caregivers are typically underpaid.

Being a stay-at-home parent is only a negative thing if the parents have not decided that staying at home is in the interest of their family.

With a guaranteed living income more parents could afford to stay home and provide this critical care, certainly through the early years.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18669
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 17 of 70 (797200)
01-14-2017 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tangle
01-13-2017 4:39 PM


Captalism selects for (rewards) psycopathy?
Well I think we know for sure that people are universally the same - on average.

But we also know that they individually differ. And a very common feature of individuals that make and run large corporations is psychopathy. So go figure.

So capitalism tends to select for (rewards) individuals that are pathological liars, cheaters and scammers, and thus they benefit more from the capitalist system.

This is why we have laws and regulated capitalism - to differing degrees.

Indeed, and we can compare different systems for their degree of success in spreading the benefits of capitalism (the generation of profits) and ameliorating the disadvantages of capitalism (ecological destruction, poverty, pollution, etc).

We can do it with specific programs (minimum wages for example and between states in the US (Wisconsin vs Minnesota for example) and we can do it between nations (social democracies in Europe vs hyper capitalist countries like the US).

In every case the more socialist programs result in greater general wealth, health and happiness.

As social systems evolve we see a trend towards increased social programs being democratically applied, universal health care, free university, etc etc etc, and the logical next step is a guaranteed living income. Especially as production become more automated and fewer workers are needed, but consumers are still needed to consume the products.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
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Posts: 18669
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 18 of 70 (797201)
01-14-2017 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Hyroglyphx
01-14-2017 5:58 AM


Myth #2: Welfare Recipients Are Lazy
And that has always been the crux of the issue when it comes socialism -- the human condition. You talk about income inequality as if some people are intentionally holding other people down but make no mention of the inequality of effort where one person has to bust their ass to feed someone who knows they can live off the forced charity of a system. ...

This falls under the 2nd Myth -- that Welfare Recipients Are Lazy.

quote:
The idea that most people on welfare are able-bodied adults who are just too lazy to get a job and make an honest living is utterly false.

Most benefit programs require recipients to work in order to collect. Take Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), for example. Single parents receiving this grant must work at least 30 hours per week in order to be eligible, and two-parent families must work between 35 and 50 hours a week.

The fact is, blue-collar wages in America are simply not high enough to support workers in today’s economy. The wages paid by many large employers are so low that their full-time employees are eligible for welfare.

You heard that right: People are working full-time to support their families, paying their fair share of taxes, but are so underpaid that they can’t get by without relying on government assistance.

This is partly due to the disturbing fact that the federal minimum wage has not been increased in over five years (despite the incessantly rising cost of living in our country) and partly due to voracious corporate greed.

And furthermore, half of all food stamp recipients are children. More than 82% of all food stamp money goes to households that include children, elderly people, or people with disabilities.These are people who legally or physically cannot work and live at the mercy of the system.

So where are all of these able-bodied lazy adults who are luxuriating off of their benefits? They are a fabrication.

Most people on welfare are hardworking, taxpaying citizens, just like the rest of us. Or they are impoverished children, elders, or folks with disabilities.

But it’s a lot easier for welfare critics to take help away from people that they imagine are lazy and deceitful, so that false image lives on.


So, sorry, but "that dog don't hunt"

The Nordic system you refer to is crumbling under its own weight. ...

Is this just another fake conservative news meme or do you have real data to back that up?

... They have a massive housing crisis in places like Sweden due largely in part to an influx in a migrant population that is eating its reserves without replenishing it. ...

So the fault\cause of the problem is not the socio-economic system per se but the immigration crisis ... last I heard this was affecting all European countries indiscriminate of their governmental socio-economic system.

Curiously I don't consider Germany to be overly socialistic.

... The hilarious thing is that you have no problem watching this fitness in action in biological, evolutionary terms. THAT is truly amoral -- neither moral nor immoral. It's just the reality. And the reality that you prefer not to recognize is that none of us deserve jack shit. Not a single one of us. Just because we're out of the forests doesn't mean that survival of the fittest no longer applies. We have to fight our lives every single day. There are winners in that game and there are losers.

AH yes the old fallacy of Social Darwinism ... when the fact is that we evolved to be social animals that take care of those in our tribe, young, elderly, disabled, and that the default "economy" of tribes is to share. We just had a discussion around altruism on The implications of Evolution and how it evolves is social organisms, and how game theory shows it to have advantages.

Amoral or immoral?

Amoral. Pathological people don't go against their morals to behave the way they do, they think it is normal, and in extreme cases take pride in it.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-14-2017 5:58 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18669
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 19 of 70 (797202)
01-14-2017 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Hyroglyphx
01-14-2017 5:58 AM


Myth #6: Welfare Is Not Effective
continuing ...

Now, since humans have more or less decided to get together for the betterment of our species as a collective way to maximize our survival, I would agree that safety nets ought to be in place in the form of unemployment insurance and to a lesser degree welfare, but to think that expanding the welfare state is the answer is extremely naive. People should be incentivized towards self-sufficiency. Some people legitimately cannot and it is those people that the system was designed for. But as we see in this country, almost a 3rd of the nation is on some form of welfare... Ridiculous. And unnecessary.

This falls under the 6th Myth -- that Welfare Is Not Effective

quote:
Government assistance is extremely effective at helping people get out of—and stay out of—poverty.

Conservative groups like the Cato Institute try to convince the public that because of increasing demand for programs such as food stamps, welfare has failed. In fact, the economic damage done by the Great Recession is the cause of rising food stamp participants.

The question we should be asking is, where would we be without these programs?

Well, in 2013, for example:

  • Food stamps helped lessen the burden of poverty for 4.8 million people.
  • The Earned Income Tax Credit and the Child Tax Credit kept 8 million hardworking families from falling under the poverty line.
  • If Social Security didn’t exist, 27 million more people would be poor.

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

Every year, Census Bureau data proves that welfare programs are instrumental in helping people get back on their feet—and quickly.

This is exactly why these programs are necessary. And precisely why cutting their funding doesn’t make any sense.

In contrast, increasing funding to welfare programs would help alleviate poverty to an even greater extent, which would in turn help the economy grow and protect the middle class.


... I would agree that safety nets ought to be in place in the form of unemployment insurance ...

And how do you deal with the unemployment caused by increased automation? People who never had a chance to get a good paying job because the grew up in a declining job market?

Consider that these programs provide a minimal living income, and that if this were universal that it would benefit society and the economy:

  • they are still consumers, and what the economy lacks right now is consumers not producers.
  • there would be no need for a minimum wage regulation, companies would need to offer enough pay to attract people that want more than the minimum out of life.
  • this would enable students to pursue their field/s of interest, working occasionally to enable them to buy supplies.
  • this would enable parents to have a stay at home care parent, thus improving the health and growth of the children, children that would be fed and loved.
  • this would enable artists to pursue their dreams without starving in a garret, working occasionally to enable them to buy supplies.
  • this enables new start up businesses and small businesses to grow without being hamstrung by minimum wage etc regulations.
  • it would not inhibit those that want to be come excessively rich.
  • etc.

With automation becoming an increasing reality, this is the only solution I see against massive starvation and poverty.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5512
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 20 of 70 (797204)
01-14-2017 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by RAZD
01-14-2017 10:15 AM


Re: Myth #2: Welfare Recipients Are Lazy
The idea that most people on welfare are able-bodied adults who are just too lazy to get a job and make an honest living is utterly false.

So then you honestly believe that upwards of 25% of the population is so infirm that they can't reasonably take care of themselves? That belies all credibility, sir.

Is this just another fake conservative news meme or do you have real data to back that up?

This is in PDF version, so I can't link it any other way on this site.
https://www.researchgate.net/...en's_Crumbling_Welfare_State

So the fault\cause of the problem is not the socio-economic system per se but the immigration crisis ... last I heard this was affecting all European countries indiscriminate of their governmental socio-economic system.

Curiously I don't consider Germany to be overly socialistic.

The migrant crisis is massively contributing to it due to a shortage in homes, a lack of assimilation, deep resentment on both sides, etc... But bringing Germany up is actually a great reference in the sense that she and France have been propping up the rest of the EU for close to a decade now. Places like Greece, which is as socialist as it gets, is a failed state at this point because it tries to eat its own flesh in the sense that it parasites off of the working class to fund the failed and corrupt government through the barrel of a gun.

AH yes the old fallacy of Social Darwinism ... when the fact is that we evolved to be social animals that take care of those in our tribe, young, elderly, disabled, and that the default "economy" of tribes is to share.

Yeah, exactly, OUR tribe... The problem is that you attribute "our tribe" to be the entire human race, which history and anthropology would strenuously disagree with. I agree that in truly small, communal communities that a form of socialism and communism can and does work. The problem is the people that think you can just magically extrapolate it on a grand scale and achieve the same results. History demonstrates ad naseum that it cannot.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

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Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 123
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 21 of 70 (797207)
01-14-2017 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by RAZD
01-14-2017 9:14 AM


I don't consider people not looking for work as unemployed, whereas this seems to assume that everyone capable of working should work.

The figure of 1.3m hidden unemployed is taken from the much larger figure of 6.3m not in the workforce. Of those 6.3m, 1.3m can and do want to work but simply aren't actively looking for whatever reason. So it represent those students and parents who do want to work, it does not suggest that those who don't want to should. Hopefully that clears it up a bit.


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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9658
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 22 of 70 (797208)
01-14-2017 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Riggamortis
01-14-2017 4:01 PM


Of those 6.3m, 1.3m can and do want to work but simply aren't actively looking for whatever reason.

That's understood. But unless the reasons are explored, and parsed out, that 1.3 million figure really does not tell us all that much. Some of these reasons are things that we ought to deal with, while other reasons are strictly personal.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


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 Message 21 by Riggamortis, posted 01-14-2017 4:01 PM Riggamortis has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11446
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 23 of 70 (797210)
01-14-2017 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by RAZD
01-14-2017 10:15 AM


Re: Myth #2: Welfare Recipients Are Lazy
quote:
But it’s a lot easier for welfare critics to take help away from people that they imagine are lazy and deceitful, so that false image lives on.

It's not just that it makes it easier for the welfare critics to take help away, whatever that means, it's also part of the human condition.

Working hard on a project while that one guy in the group doen't do anything sucks, but capitalizing on that reward drives you to do it anyways.

Trying to make that out as some kind of pathology is a little disgusting, at face value.

I haven't read this thread, and I'm not sure I want to...


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Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 123
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 24 of 70 (797211)
01-14-2017 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by NoNukes
01-14-2017 5:32 PM


I see no point in quibbling over the hidden unemployment figure. My point is still valid even ignoring those 1.3m 'hidden unemployed' given the ratio is still more than 10 to 1.

Conservatives like to assume they are all lazy or playing the system but most of them simply can't get a job because there aren't enough to go around.


This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9658
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 25 of 70 (797214)
01-14-2017 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Riggamortis
01-14-2017 9:37 PM


I see no point in quibbling over the hidden unemployment figure. My point is still valid even ignoring those 1.3m 'hidden unemployed' given the ratio is still more than 10 to 1

In fact, the ratio has nothing to do with those hidden unemployed folk. If you were able to get those folks out on the pavement with resumes in hand, the ratio of seekers to jobs would become even larger.

Yeah, I get your point. The official number in the US is much lower. With ratios as high as you say, a safety net is imperative.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Riggamortis, posted 01-14-2017 9:37 PM Riggamortis has not yet responded

    
vimesey
Member
Posts: 868
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 26 of 70 (797217)
01-15-2017 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by New Cat's Eye
01-14-2017 9:17 PM


Re: Myth #2: Welfare Recipients Are Lazy
I don't think things are as binary as the extremes of both sides make out.

There are people who take the piss out of the welfare system. That's unfair and wrong, and it's right to stop that.

There are people who need a welfare system, because through no fault of their own, they can't do what a large number of us can to earn our way. Sometimes this is temporary, sometimes permanent. But it is a decent and proper thing for society to do, to help them out.

A welfare system should exist to help people in an unfortunate position. And those people who are not in an unfortunate position and choose to abuse welfare should be stopped. That, I think, is the extent of the moral position.

The pragmatics of delivering that is what keeps people scratching their heads.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9658
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 27 of 70 (797236)
01-15-2017 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by RAZD
01-14-2017 9:19 AM


they don't get full compensation for being a child caregiver

No, they don't.

I don't get compensated for making my bed or doing my laundry either. I think it is difficult to make the case that you should be compensated for raising your own kids.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by RAZD, posted 01-14-2017 9:19 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1779
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 28 of 70 (797243)
01-16-2017 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by NoNukes
01-15-2017 6:51 PM


NoNukes writes:

they don't get full compensation for being a child caregiver

No, they don't.

Yeah...tell that to the divorce lawyers....


- xongsmith, 5.7d

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ringo
Member
Posts: 13213
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 29 of 70 (797285)
01-16-2017 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by RAZD
01-12-2017 11:07 AM


RAZD writes:

When I was employed (by a town), I was hiring technical staff to fill out a new department, and I had ~200 applications for one job.


Unemployment creates a lot of work for the people doing the hiring.
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18669
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 30 of 70 (797291)
01-16-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Hyroglyphx
01-14-2017 1:04 PM


Re: Myth #2: Welfare Recipients Are Lazy
This is in PDF version, so I can't link it any other way on this site.
https://www.researchgate.net/...en's_Crumbling_Welfare_State

I signed up for free permission to see this, but am still waiting for final approval.

So then you honestly believe that upwards of 25% of the population is so infirm that they can't reasonably take care of themselves? That belies all credibility, sir.

Not at all. What the data shows is that most people on various welfare programs ARE working, sometimes 2 or 3 jobs, but the PAY is not enough to live on and they qualify for benefits because their income is low. This is where minimum wage comes in -- because those companies that pay workers so low they qualify for welfare means those companies are sucking money out of the workers ... AND the taxpayers.

The migrant crisis is massively contributing to it due to a shortage in homes, a lack of assimilation, deep resentment on both sides, etc...

I'll wait for the article before I respond in full, but I don't think you can blame the more socially developed countries for failing from this cause. In the long run this should balance out as more immigrants find work and contribute back to the system.

... But bringing Germany up is actually a great reference in the sense that she and France have been propping up the rest of the EU for close to a decade now. Places like Greece, ...

The problems in Greece were exacerbated by the banking collapse and by greedy bankers in Germany and the US, etc, buying up the debt and then imposing rapacious interest on them. They have aggravated the problem further by insisting on austerity measures that virtually guarantee an inability to grow and recover.

... it tries to eat its own flesh in the sense that it parasites off of the working class to fund the failed and corrupt government through the barrel of a gun.

So again, the problem is not the socialist programs per se but the corruption in government.

Yeah, exactly, OUR tribe... The problem is that you attribute "our tribe" to be the entire human race, which history and anthropology would strenuously disagree with. ... The problem is the people that think you can just magically extrapolate it on a grand scale and achieve the same results. ...

The more socially evolved you are the larger your tribe. I consider that conservatives have more "them" than "us" while progressives have more "us" than "them" in their equations. We are all siblings.

... I agree that in truly small, communal communities that a form of socialism and communism can and does work. ...

Because it is easier to work in small groups, but that doesn't really mean there isn't opportunity to grow.

An economic system where the economy is basically capitalistic, but the corporations are worker owned democratically run co-ops would be an improvement over one where corporations are run by elites as small feudal kingdoms.

We wage a revolutionary war to rid ourselves of feudalistic top-down government, why should we tolerate it in corporations?

... History demonstrates ad naseum that it cannot.

Except for where it does work, and where it does work is where the government is democratic and the people decide how the benefits of the capitalistic economy are shared among the people. Where social programs temper the evils of unfettered capitalism for the benefit of the general population.

The World Happiness Survey was done by the UN to measure and compare countries on national happiness:

quote:
The first World Happiness Report was released on April 1, 2012 as a foundational text for the meeting. It drew international attention as the world's first global happiness survey.[2] The report outlined the state of world happiness, causes of happiness and misery, and policy implications highlighted by case studies. In September 2013 the second World Happiness Report offered the first annual follow-up and reports are now issued every year.[3] The report uses data from the Gallup World Poll. Each annual report is available to the public on the World Happiness Report website.

In the reports, leading experts in several fields--economics, psychology, survey analysis, national statistics, and more--describe how measurements of well-being can be used effectively to assess the progress of nations. Each report is organized by chapters that delve deeper into issues relating to happiness, including mental illness, the objective benefits of happiness, the importance of ethics, policy implications, and links with the OECD's approach to measuring subjective well-being and the Human Development Report.

Data is collected from people in over 150 countries. Each variable measured reveals a populated-weighted average score on a scale running from 0 to 10 that is tracked over time and compared against other countries. These variables currently include: real GDP per capita, social support, healthy life expectancy, freedom to make life choices, generosity, and perceptions of corruption. Each country is also compared against a hypothetical nation called Dystopia. Dystopia represents the lowest national averages for each key variable and is, along with residual error, used as a regression benchmark.

Overall RankCountryScoreChange Over PriorAmount
1Denmark7.526-0.401
2Switzerland7.509+0.035
3Iceland7.5010.000
4Norway7.498+0.082
5Finland7.498-0.259
6Canada7.404-0.041
7Netherlands7.339-0.119
8New Zealand7.334-0.097
9Australia70119-0.003
10Sweden7.291-0.017
13United States7.104-0.261

Curious that all the countries that rank higher than the US have more socialistic programs, from universal healthcare to free college education. They have more family leave, vacation time, and larger benefits for unemployment and social assistance.

... History demonstrates ad naseum that it cannot.

History demonstrates ad nauseum that democratic socialist countries succeed in providing more overall happiness for their populations.

Democracy works best, imho, when the population is well educated, healthy and properly compensated for work.

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-14-2017 1:04 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
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