Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 120 (8781 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-20-2017 11:15 AM
358 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: evilsorcerer1
Post Volume:
Total: 816,533 Year: 21,139/21,208 Month: 1,572/2,326 Week: 27/881 Day: 27/119 Hour: 2/9

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
62636465
66
67Next
Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4975
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


(3)
Message 976 of 1002 (808323)
05-10-2017 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 974 by Dredge
05-10-2017 4:52 AM


Re: Creationist summary? vs rationalist summary
Dredge writes:

Do human beings need to survive, individually or collectively?

Well I definitely feel the need not to be dead. I just asked my daughter and she does too. Not only that, we both decided that it would be bad if the other was dead.

That's a sample of two. How about you? Do you feel it would be ok to be dead? How about your mum? Maybe ask a few others - see if you can form a bit of a consensus.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 974 by Dredge, posted 05-10-2017 4:52 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18861
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 977 of 1002 (808328)
05-10-2017 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 972 by Dredge
05-10-2017 3:51 AM


Re: Creationist summary? vs rationalist summary
RAZD writes:

It is for the group.

You seem to have repeated yourself. Can you elaborate, please? Why is survival of the group important?

The survival of the group is important to the group because then it continues to exist as a group. The group evolved as a means to improve survival and reproduction for members of the group, so it is important for the group to have behaviors that promote cohesiveness in the group. These behaviors, instinctual or learned (memes), then are selected by their ability to improve the cohesiveness and productivity of the group.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 972 by Dredge, posted 05-10-2017 3:51 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6393
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 978 of 1002 (808329)
05-10-2017 8:43 AM


Does Dredge even have a point any more?
Dredge, you series of one or two sentence comments seem pretty random and don't seem to have much of a coherent idea behind them. Are you still trying to argue for something? 'Cause you're giving the impression of someone shooting a gun blindly behind his back as he's trying to get away.

Maybe you need to take a break for a couple of days, think about what you're trying to say, and write a more substantive post expressing your point clearly.


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. – Billy Bragg

Replies to this message:
 Message 979 by Davidjay, posted 05-10-2017 9:11 AM Chiroptera has responded

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 979 of 1002 (808332)
05-10-2017 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 978 by Chiroptera
05-10-2017 8:43 AM


Re: Chir, useage of the word random
Chir.... you must be more consistent with you wording, as evolutionists are mainly semantic linquists

Dredge, you series of one or two sentence comments seem pretty RANDOM and don't seem to have much of a coherent idea behind them. Are you still trying to argue for something? 'Cause you're giving the impression of someone shooting a gun blindly behind his back as he's trying to get away.
Maybe you need to take a break for a couple of days, think about what you're trying to say, and write a more substantive post expressing your point clearly.

?

Now dont take offense, but as an evolutionist that honours and adores and admits that mutations are random and everything about evolution is random and undirected..... you have now switched your allegiances and try to use the word randoness as if it is bad and undirected and misguided...which it is.

But you cant have it both ways, random is unguided, and undirected, so change from worshipping randonmness in evolutionary theory to consistently making it one of your principles that you can get directed and quided to true principles.

Use the word random properly and consistently.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 978 by Chiroptera, posted 05-10-2017 8:43 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 980 by vimesey, posted 05-10-2017 9:25 AM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 981 by Chiroptera, posted 05-10-2017 10:38 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
vimesey
Member
Posts: 888
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


(4)
Message 980 of 1002 (808335)
05-10-2017 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 979 by Davidjay
05-10-2017 9:11 AM


Groundhog Day
I think I've detected the pattern here. Every day you wake up, and every day you come on here and repeat the same falsehoods about what evolution is:

and everything about evolution is random and undirected...

And every day, we correct you and explain, for example here, that evolution is mutation within a population, which is guided by natural selection.

And every day after, you come back and ignore what has been patiently explained to you.

The difference with Groundhog Day, I guess, is that Bill Murray came to an epiphany and started to spend his time educating himself and becoming a more rounded person. You seem content to be condemned to repeating your mistakes.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 979 by Davidjay, posted 05-10-2017 9:11 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 984 by Diomedes, posted 05-10-2017 1:12 PM vimesey has not yet responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6393
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.2


(3)
Message 981 of 1002 (808344)
05-10-2017 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 979 by Davidjay
05-10-2017 9:11 AM


Context, my friend, context.
While playing a game with friends that involves rolling dice, randomness is desirable.

In presenting a coherent argument to further a point, randomness will obscure your position.

When speaking about the appearance of inheritable variations upon which natural selection acts, randomness is neither good nor bad, it is just how things happen.


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. – Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 979 by Davidjay, posted 05-10-2017 9:11 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7034
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 982 of 1002 (808347)
05-10-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 971 by Dredge
05-10-2017 3:48 AM


So which religion did Hitler follow?

Christianity, obviously.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 971 by Dredge, posted 05-10-2017 3:48 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 985 by Dredge, posted 05-11-2017 2:49 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7034
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 983 of 1002 (808349)
05-10-2017 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 974 by Dredge
05-10-2017 4:52 AM


Re: Creationist summary? vs rationalist summary
Dredge writes:

Do human beings need to survive, individually or collectively?

They don't need to do anything. You are looking at this from the wrong direction.

The process of evolution looks at one thing, the survival of genes. Genes that promote altruism can cause those genes to survive at a higher rate. For example, groups of humans that work together in an altruistic manner can have more offspring than a lone human. They pass on their genes at a higher rate. This means that those genes come to dominate the human population.

You need to have a better understanding between cause and effect.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 974 by Dredge, posted 05-10-2017 4:52 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 644
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 984 of 1002 (808385)
05-10-2017 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 980 by vimesey
05-10-2017 9:25 AM


Re: Groundhog Day
I think I've detected the pattern here. Every day you wake up, and every day you come on here and repeat the same falsehoods about what evolution is:

And every day, we correct you and explain, for example here, that evolution is mutation within a population, which is guided by natural selection.

And every day after, you come back and ignore what has been patiently explained to you.

The difference with Groundhog Day, I guess, is that Bill Murray came to an epiphany and started to spend his time educating himself and becoming a more rounded person. You seem content to be condemned to repeating your mistakes.

My suspicion is that we are dealing with a Christian troll. I don't believe he is actually interested in dialog. He just wants to preach and is looking to get a rise out of people. His responses are so off the wall and nonsensical, that my guess is he is just here to spew nonsense, not engage in meaningful debate.

Eventually, he will be banned and that will fulfill his messianic need to be the poor 'persecuted' Christian who was treated badly by those nasty 'evolutionists'.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 980 by vimesey, posted 05-10-2017 9:25 AM vimesey has not yet responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 985 of 1002 (808476)
05-11-2017 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 982 by Taq
05-10-2017 10:48 AM


Taq writes:

Christianity, obviously.

Can you cite one example of Hitler invoking the name of Jesus Christ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 982 by Taq, posted 05-10-2017 10:48 AM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 986 by Tangle, posted 05-11-2017 3:00 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 987 by bluegenes, posted 05-11-2017 3:14 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4975
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 986 of 1002 (808477)
05-11-2017 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 985 by Dredge
05-11-2017 2:49 AM


Dredge writes:

Can you cite one example of Hitler invoking the name of Jesus Christ?

Well it took me 30 seconds to find this - close enough?

quote:
In a speech from April 12, 1922 and published in his book My New Order, Adolf Hitler explains his perspective on Jesus Christ:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross."



Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 985 by Dredge, posted 05-11-2017 2:49 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 987 of 1002 (808479)
05-11-2017 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 985 by Dredge
05-11-2017 2:49 AM


Dredge writes:

Can you cite one example of Hitler invoking the name of Jesus Christ?

He tended not to use the Jesus, just Christ, Our Lord etc.

quote:

“The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties– and this against their own nation.”

Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”, Vol. 1, Chapter 11

quote:

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed.”

Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922, countering a political opponent, Count Lerchenfeld, who opposed antisemitism on his personal Christian feelings.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 985 by Dredge, posted 05-11-2017 2:49 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 988 of 1002 (808657)
05-12-2017 4:45 AM


Yet there are Hitler quotes that indicate he hated Christianity. So it's a very confusing picture. Anyhow, there always exists the distinct possibility that he used pro-Christian rhetoric to appeal to a Christiian audience. Oldest trick in the book.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 990 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2017 4:58 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 991 by bluegenes, posted 05-12-2017 5:57 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 997 by ringo, posted 05-12-2017 12:10 PM Dredge has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 989 of 1002 (808658)
05-12-2017 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 962 by Taq
05-08-2017 2:59 PM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Taq writes:

the commands of a deity as written by men


As I pointed out in an earlier post, if no Gods or gods exist, some of the morality invented by religions is as valid as any non-religious morality, because it is still the morality of human beings.  
 To illustrate this point, if there were no religions, a great many people would still consider homosexuality to be immoral; likewise, many people would still consider abortion immoral.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 962 by Taq, posted 05-08-2017 2:59 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 993 by Chiroptera, posted 05-12-2017 8:54 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 995 by jar, posted 05-12-2017 9:30 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 996 by Taq, posted 05-12-2017 11:10 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4975
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 990 of 1002 (808659)
05-12-2017 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 988 by Dredge
05-12-2017 4:45 AM


Dredge writes:

Yet there are Hitler quotes that indicate he hated Christianity.

As you haven't provided any, it's a mute point.

So it's a very confusing picture. Anyhow, there always exists the distinct possibility that he used pro-Christian rhetoric to appeal to a Christiian audience. Oldest trick in the book.

Never-the-less you asked for evidence and we provided it. Now you have it, you wriggle away again. Cake and eat it?

However, I agree that psychopathic, genocidal dictators are very bad examples to use for anything other than being psychopathic, genocidal dictators so perhaps you can learn that lesson and stop bringing him up?

Now, tell us about these objective morals that you have - what are they?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 988 by Dredge, posted 05-12-2017 4:45 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
62636465
66
67Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017