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Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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(1)
Message 1276 of 1352 (814367)
07-08-2017 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1271 by CRR
07-08-2017 4:34 AM


Re: Ice Cores. and Hoary PRATTS and ignorance.
The Lost Squadron in Greenland shows how ice cores can be misinterpreted to greatly exaggerate ages. In 46 years, from 1942 to 1988, the 8 aircraft were covered by 75m of ice showing hundreds of "annual" layers.
http://creation.com/the-lost-squadron

Another hoary PRATT: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD410.html

quote:
Claim CD410:

Ice cores are claimed to have as many as 135,000 annual layers. Yet airplanes of the Lost Squadron were buried under 263 feet of ice in forty-eight years, or about 5.5 feet per year. This contradicts the presumption that the wafer-thin layers in the ice cores could be annual layers.

Source:

Vardiman, Larry. 1992. Ice cores and the age of the earth. Impact 226 (Apr.). http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&...

Response:

1. Ice layers are counted by different methods (mainly, visible layers of hoar frost, visible dust layers, and layers of differing electrical conductivity) which have nothing to do with thickness. These methods corroborate each other and match with other independently determined dates (Seely 2003).

2. The airplanes landed near the shore of Greenland, where snow accumulation is rapid, at about 2 m per year. Allowing for some compaction due to the weight of the snow, that accounts for the depth of snow under which they are buried. The planes are also on an active glacier and have moved about 2 km since landing. Ice core dating takes place on stable ice fields, not active glaciers. The interior of Greenland, where ice cores were taken, receives much less snow. In Antarctica, where ice cores dating back more than 100,000 years have been collected, the rate of snow accumulation is much less still.

3. A report of "many hundreds" of layers in the ice above the Lost Squadron may also be explained by the airplanes' location on Greenland. That location is relatively warm because it is low and more southerly; its surface gets repeatedly melted during the summer, creating multiple melt layers per year. At the site of the GISP2 ice core, melting occurs only about once every couple centuries. Melt layers are easily distinguished in ice cores. The more than 100,000 layers in ice cores are definitely not melt layers (Seely 2003).

Links:
Kuechmann, F. C., 2000. Creationist comedy. http://noanswersingenesis.org.au/kuechmann_cretin_comedy.htm
References:

1. Seely, Paul H. 2003. The GISP2 ice core: Ultimate proof that Noah's flood was not global. Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith 55(4): 252-260. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf

Further Reading:
Seely, Paul H. 2003. The GISP2 ice core: Ultimate proof that Noah's flood was not global. Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith 55(4): 252-260. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf

Brinkman, Matt, 1995. Ice core dating. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html


There are also differences in the ratio of 18O to 16O that indicate different climate, similar to the way the width of tree rings indicates different climate.

quote:
Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1Message 7: http://www.gsf.fi/esf_holivar/johnsen.pdf (4)

quote:
Combined with highly advanced measuring techniques (Fuhrer et al. 1993; Hammer et al. 1985; RĂthlisberger et al. 2000) the resolution of the Greenland ice-core records can frequently be finer than a year, and potentially this degree of temporal resolution extends back to before 100 thousand years before present. ...

The 8.2 k cold event was originally dated in the Dye-3 core (Hammer et al. 1986) using the
strong d18O annual cycle. The Dye-3 chronology was subsequently transferred to the GRIP ice core by correlating volcanic events. The absolute age of the Younger Dryas/Preboreal transition in the GRIP core (11.500 BP) was obtained by counting annual cycles in high resolution Ca and ammonium ion records (Fuhrer et al. 1993) starting at the 8.2k cold event. ... and ii) by counting annual cycles in a continuous dust record back to 60 ka (Hammer et al. in press,1999?)

references
(4) Johnsen, SigfĂşs J. "The Greenland ice core records" ESF -- HOLIVAR workshop, Lammi Finland, April 17-20th 2002 Disscussion Paper. accessed 10 Jan 2007 from http://www.gsf.fi/esf_holivar/johnsen.pdf



Dust doesn't happen in the winter months, snow doesn't fall in the summer months, so dust layers indicate annual layers ... 60,000 of them countable (before the layers get too compressed).

Hugh Ross correctly points out that the southeast corner of the Greenland Ice Sheet [where the lost squadron landed] is a relatively warm area with very high snowfall. However, this situation shows that with a different climate regime during the Ice Age with no sea ice and a warm ocean, the rapid development of the Greenland Ice Sheet can occur. Snowfall was much heavier in the first several post–Flood centuries—even heavier than snowfall near the shores of Greenland today.

This is known as a "Hide-the-Pea" lie -- a favorite deception used by creationists --by ignoring the indicators of annual cycles to concentrate on a non-sequitur red-herring.

http://creation.com/the-lost-squadron
http://creation.com/cold-comfort-for-long-agers
http://creation.com/ice-core-clamour

Perpetrators of lies and misinformation which is intentional or they would have corrected their information when told how false and ignorant it is.

Food for the gullible. Easily falsified with a little research.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1271 by CRR, posted 07-08-2017 4:34 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
JonF
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Posts: 3801
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 1277 of 1352 (814374)
07-08-2017 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1271 by CRR
07-08-2017 4:34 AM


Re: Ice Cores.
Already posted by others.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1271 by CRR, posted 07-08-2017 4:34 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Pollux
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Posts: 200
Joined: 11-13-2011
Member Rating: 8.3


(2)
Message 1278 of 1352 (814383)
07-08-2017 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1271 by CRR
07-08-2017 4:34 AM


Re: Ice Cores.
Ice cores are not counted by guess-work. As well as visible layers, chemical determinations are done which include Ca, Na, nitrate, and sulphite. Comparisons are made with other cores and land and sea cores, which are many - I would appreciate it anyone has an idea of just how many there are.

Lead is seen to increase about 2500 years ago when it was starting to be used in Greece, increasing at first then decreasing during the Middle Ages, to increase with the Industrial Revolution.

With no obvious difference in the earlier layers there is no reason to think different conditions such as a Flood caused the earlier layers.

In three Greenland cores alone - DYE3, GRIP, and NGRIP, totalling 5700m of ice, counted to about 60,000 layers, 175,000 isotope determinations and more than 1,000,000 chemical test were done. This is a fair bit of work to miss the fact that they are looking at storm layers!

I have not seen any evidence that CMI or AIG went along to help with their testing, but I expect the researchers would appreciate being shown where they are getting it wrong.
Volcanic signatures can also be seen.


This message is a reply to:
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Pollux
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Posts: 200
Joined: 11-13-2011
Member Rating: 8.3


(1)
Message 1279 of 1352 (814385)
07-08-2017 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1271 by CRR
07-08-2017 4:34 AM


Re: Ice Core and volcanoes
The ash from individual volcanic eruptions often has distinctive suites of minerals,allowing its identification in deposits.

Mt Mazama eruption has a RC date of 7680+/-10 and is found in ice core at 7676 years.

Toba volcano in Indonesia had the biggest eruption in the last 100,000 years, RM date 74,000, and there is a major sulphate spike in cores at 74,000 years.

Further with Toba :
Cores from Lake Malawi show increasing RC date with depth to its limit of 50.000 years. About half as far again is a layer of Toba ash at 28m depth. There are 500m more of lake deposit before reaching sedimentary rock.

These findings, with different methods giving similar results, to me are good evidence that RC and RM dating, and ice core counts, are reliable.

What alternative conclusion is there?

Edited by Pollux, : sulphite changed to sulphate


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
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Posts: 5905
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 1280 of 1352 (814386)
07-08-2017 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1279 by Pollux
07-08-2017 8:35 PM


Re: Ice Core and volcanoes
What alternative conclusion is there?

As you can see by reading earlier posts in this thread, some posters feel that belief and scripture supersede scientific evidence.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1279 by Pollux, posted 07-08-2017 8:35 PM Pollux has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18805
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 1281 of 1352 (814387)
07-08-2017 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1279 by Pollux
07-08-2017 8:35 PM


Re: Ice Core and volcanoes
The ash from individual volcanic eruptions often has distinctive suites of minerals,allowing its identification in deposits.

Mt Mazama eruption has a RC date of 7680+/-10 and is found in ice core at 7676 years.

Toba volcano in Indonesia had the biggest eruption in the last 100,000 years, RM date 74,000, and there is a major sulphite spike in cores at 74,000 years.

Further with Toba :
Cores from Lake Malawi show increasing RC date with depth to its limit of 50.000 years. About half as far again is a layer of Toba ash at 28m depth. There are 500m more of lake deposit before reaching sedimentary rock.

These findings, with different methods giving similar results, to me are good evidence that RC and RM dating, and ice core counts, are reliable.

What alternative conclusion is there?

This is the consilience of information from multiple sources, multiple ways of dating, that somehow -- laden with the errors endemic to all scientific studies -- all result in the same information. It must be magical coincidence ... or just plain reality.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 1286 by Pollux, posted 07-10-2017 9:24 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3810
Joined: 09-26-2002
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 1282 of 1352 (814389)
07-08-2017 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1279 by Pollux
07-08-2017 8:35 PM


Semi-random Adminnemooseus references request
A couple of pretty nice messages there, but I would be nice if you cite/link to source materials. Without such, the messages rather fall into the "unsupported assertions" category.

Not just you, this happens a lot around here. In general, most messages should also contain one or more references (links, if from on-line).

No replies to this message, in this message. Replies (and I would love to see a discussion of this matter) should go to General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures (aka 'The Whine List').

There are also specific topic(s) concerning the need for references in messages, somewhere at this forum.

Adminnemooseus


Or something like that©.

This message is a reply to:
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Pollux
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: 11-13-2011
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 1283 of 1352 (814390)
07-08-2017 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1278 by Pollux
07-08-2017 8:12 PM


Re: Ice Cores reference
Information from http;www.iceandclimate.nbi.ku.dk/research at the Neils Bohr institute, though I am not sure now where it is buried there.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1278 by Pollux, posted 07-08-2017 8:12 PM Pollux has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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CRR
Member
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


(3)
Message 1284 of 1352 (814400)
07-09-2017 6:03 AM


Re: Ice Cores
I think I have been pwned on this one. I'll have to do more research on this topic.
  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18805
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 1285 of 1352 (814401)
07-09-2017 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1283 by Pollux
07-08-2017 10:10 PM


Re: Ice Cores reference
Information from http;www.iceandclimate.nbi.ku.dk/research at the Neils Bohr institute, though I am not sure now where it is buried there.

That's a great resource for my next set of revisions on the age of the earth series. Bookmarked.

Thanks.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1283 by Pollux, posted 07-08-2017 10:10 PM Pollux has acknowledged this reply

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: 11-13-2011
Member Rating: 8.3


(3)
Message 1286 of 1352 (814576)
07-10-2017 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1281 by RAZD
07-08-2017 8:48 PM


Re: Ice Core and volcanoes
Toba and its record in ice and lake cores is covered in articles at www.thenaturalhistorian.com , which site has many interesting entries.

For those unfamiliar with Toba, its 2800 cubic km of volcanic product is 100 times that of Krakatoa. Human artefacts are found above and below its up to metre of ash placed on India, and signs of cooling for decades or more are seen in ice cores, and altered pollens in India indicate cooling.

This is of course excellent evidence that humans have been around for more than 74,000 years, and there was no Flood in that time.

Interestingly, there seemed to be little climate change in Africa with similar pollens above and below its deposit.


This message is a reply to:
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Pollux
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Posts: 200
Joined: 11-13-2011
Member Rating: 8.3


(1)
Message 1287 of 1352 (814780)
07-12-2017 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
04-05-2017 9:03 PM


Strata (1)
Faith seems to have gone strangely quiet in this thread but I have been thinking it would be good to look in some detail at her claims the strata support a recent Flood.

There are 10 major geological systems from Cambrian to Cenozoic or Tertiary. Their limits are defined by the appearance or disappearance of particular fossils, and were worked out in early 19th century. The ends of some, particularly Permian and Cretaceous, are marked by a serious extinction event with the vanishing of large numbers of species, genera and families, followed by a time of gradual diversification of the survivors.

In addition to the five big extinctions there are several smaller ones.

Even without these major events, the fossil record often shows the arising of a type of plant or animal, its spreading and diversification, and eventual decline and maybe disappearance.

The trilobites as mentioned by RAZD are an example.

Ecological zonation as put forward by Creationists, that thy fossil record shows different area being successively overcome by the Flood can not explain this, especially with the earliest critters all being in the sea.

Faith et al have been repeatedly asked to produce a mechanism whereby the Flood could do this sorting, to no avail. It is a problem admitted by the SDA Geoscience Research Institute which was set up to find evidence for the Flood.

Also remember the earliest geologists were creationists who went looking for evidence to support the Flood, and could not find it.

So explaining the major geological divisions seems a well nigh intractable problem for Floodists, YEC or OEC.

But wait, there is more!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1288 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-12-2017 9:19 PM Pollux has responded
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Tanypteryx
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Posts: 1514
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1288 of 1352 (814786)
07-12-2017 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1287 by Pollux
07-12-2017 8:57 PM


Re: Strata (1)
Also remember the earliest geologists were creationists who went looking for evidence to support the Flood, and could not find it.

One of the funny things I have noticed is despite the creationist compulsion to list famous scientists who were creationists I don't remember ever seeing them list those early geologists as support for creationism. They seem to think that those lists lend some support for their argument, but the creationists who actually tried to find evidence of the flood and came to the conclusion based on the evidence that there was no flood are pointedly ignored. I wonder why?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1287 by Pollux, posted 07-12-2017 8:57 PM Pollux has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
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Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1289 of 1352 (814795)
07-12-2017 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1287 by Pollux
07-12-2017 8:57 PM


Re: Strata (1)
The simple obvious appearance of the strata is of one layer deposited over another continuously, not of "systems" or any such conceit. Time periods are impossible: these are ROCKS that cover great areas of geography containing dead things. The idea that those dead things ever lived on the surface now covered by that rock, let alone on the rock itself, takes a wild imagination that misses the reality of the situation. The separate sediments speak of continuous water deposition. We don't need to know HOW the creatures were sorted, all we need to know is that the imputing of long ages to a slab of rock assumes a ridiculous impossibility. The "extinctions" are nothing but layers that didn't carry a particular creature. For the sciences of the past the scientists are sure a bunch of gullible dreamers.

There's nothing strange about my leaving this thread. I've said it all many times over, there's no more to say.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Pollux
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: 11-13-2011
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 1290 of 1352 (814798)
07-12-2017 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1288 by Tanypteryx
07-12-2017 9:19 PM


Re: Strata (1)
The SDA GRI has been around for over 50 years without coming up with a Flood model to explain the evidence, Faith's protestations notwithstanding. In their early days they had some frank articles addressing YEC problems, and had 2 on early geologists being Creationists with difficulty finding evidence.

In fact some of their articles helped me on my journey away from YEC.


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