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Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
Pollux
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Posts: 201
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 1306 of 1352 (814820)
07-13-2017 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1295 by Faith
07-13-2017 12:13 AM


Permian extinction
Hi Faith

How did the Flood manage to mimic a massive extinction of 96% of marine and 70% terrestrial vertebrates at the end of the Permian, with Lystrosaurus being the main vertebrate survivor? This was followed by a mimicking of a slow increase in biodiversity while isotopes were sorted to make the recovery seem to take millions of years. How did the Flood do it?


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Coyote
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Joined: 01-12-2008
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(1)
Message 1307 of 1352 (814821)
07-13-2017 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1297 by Faith
07-13-2017 12:16 AM


Re: Strata (2)
Yes, the dating data is obviously wrong. The facts as I've presented them trump all that.

When it comes to dating, you have stated that biblical evidence trumps scientific evidence, that you don't know how and why the dating evidence is wrong, but that you believe it is wrong anyway.

Those are not facts. RAZD in his several dating threads has presented facts. What you have presented is belief, or religious apologetics--the exact opposite of science.

You should not conflate those two opposite approaches.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


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RAZD
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Posts: 19220
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Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 1308 of 1352 (814834)
07-13-2017 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1304 by Pollux
07-13-2017 12:57 AM


Re: Strata (3)
As indicated by others, scattered through the fossil layers are igneous layers dateable by RM dating. These dates are consistent with the fossil order. As I said in an earlier post, one of the supporting evidences for the accuracy of Rm dating is the way the ages of seamounts in a chain increase in tandem with the expected rate of tectonic plate movement over a hot spot. So the Flood has to sort the Isotopes as well as fossils in the correct order.

And being able to sort isotopes by chemical processes doesn't work, so being able to sort the isotopes in an exponential distribution while sorting layers in a linear time scale by water is not possible.

Not possible for one isotope, not possible for two in the same layers where both show the same age layer by layer by layer.

See Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 - Message 9 Age Correlations and An Old Earth (ver 2 no 1), The Devil's Hole

Here the annual layers are provided by ice cores ...

quote:
We have correlations between age, climate and temperatures, so how is this data evaluated?

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1997/ofr97-792/ (3)

quote:
Devils Hole is a tectonically formed cave developed in the discharge zone of a regional aquifer in south-central Nevada. (See Riggs, et al., 1994.) The walls of this subaqueous cavern are coated with dense vein calcite which provides an ideal material for precise uranium-series dating via thermal ionization mass spectrometry (TIMS). Devils Hole Core DH-11 is a 36-cm-long core of vein calcite from which we obtained an approximately 500,000-year-long continuous record of paleotemperature and other climatic proxies. Data from this core were recently used by Winograd and others (1997) to discuss the length and stability of the last four interglaciations.

Carbon and oxygen stable isotopic ratios were measured on 285 samples cut at regular intervals inward from the free face of the core (as reported in Winograd et al. ,1992, and in Coplen et al., 1994). Table 1 lists only 284 samples because a sample taken at 114.28 mm was eliminated when post-1994 reanalysis of its delta 18O value indicated an error in the earlier determination. Carbon isotopic ratios are reported in per mill (footnote #1) relative to VPDB, defined by assigning a delta 13C of +1.95 per mill to the reference material NBS 19 calcite. Oxygen isotopic ratios are reported relative to VSMOW reference water on a scale normalized such that SLAP reference water is -55.5 per mill relative to VSMOW reference water. The oxygen isotopic fractionation factors employed in this determination are those listed in Coplen and others (1983). The delta 18O value of the isotopic reference material NBS 19 on this scale is +28.65 per mill. The 1 sd (standard deviation) error for the delta 18O and delta 13C analyses is 0.07 and 0.05 per mill, respectively.


They measured the age with a radiometric decay system and also measured d18O and d13C as measures of climate. There is a table with the 284 samples by age with d18O and d13C values. For a correlation of that data to the age and climate information we have already see we turn to

http://water.usgs.gov/nrp/devils.html (8)

quote:
The Devils Hole d18O record is an indicator of paleotemperature and corresponds in timing and magnitude to paleo-SST (sea surface temperature) recorded in Pacific Ocean sediments off the California and Oregon coasts. The record is also highly correlated with major variations in temperature in the Vostok ice core, from the East Antarctic plateau. The d13C record is thought to reflect changes in global variations in the ratio of stable carbon isotopes of atmospheric CO2 and/or changes in the density of vegetation in the groundwater recharge areas tributary to Devils Hole.
(See Winograd et al., 1996; Herbert et al., 2001; Winograd, 2002; Winograd, et al., 1997; Landwehr and Winograd, 2001; Landwehr, 2002; and Coplen, et al., 1994.)

As eminent a geochemist as W. Broecker has stated that "...the Devils Hole chronology is the best we have..." Since 1992, all core material has been uranium-series dated using thermal ionization mass spectrometric (TIMS) methodology. In 1997, the Devils Hole Thorium-230 dates were independently confirmed by non-USGS investigators using Protactinium-231.
(See Broecker, 1992; Ludwig, et al., 1992; Winograd, et al., 1997; and Edwards, et al., 1997.)


Note - "highly correlated" with climatological data from the Vostok ice core data, which "matches almost perfectly" the climatological data from the Greenland ice core data. Corroborated by two independent radiometric methods. The oldest date in the data table is 567,700 years ago.


and

quote:
Using the half-lives of thorium-230 (75,380 years) and protactinium-231 (32,760 years), we can now draw the exponential curves for these isotopes (with % on the y-axis and time in k-yrs on the x axis, thorium in blue and protactinium in red):

This means we have a series of data with three different pieces of information: calcite layer age, Thorium-230 content and Protactinium-231 content. We also note that Thorium-230 has a half-life of 75,380 years, while Protactinium-231 has a half-life of 32,760 years - less than half the half-life of Thorium-230. This means that layer by layer the ratio of Thorium-230 to Protactinium-231 is different:

   Age   THr=THf/THo PAr=PAf/PAo  THr/PAr
------------------------------------------
75,380 0.5000 0.2029 2.46
150,760 0.2500 0.0412 6.07
226,140 0.1250 0.0084 14.96
301,520 0.0625 0.0017 36.86
376,900 0.0313 0.0003 90.82
452,280 0.0156 0.0001 223.77
527,660 0.0078 0.00001 551.35

So for these dates to be invalid there would have to be a mechanism that can layer by layer preferentially change the ratio of these two {elements\isotopes} within the solid calcite vein.


AND this is not the only source of multiple radiometric dating being used on samples and getting the same ages.

It is absolutely ridiculous for any rational person to think water can accomplish this sorting. The YECie version of the world is delusional.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26604
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1309 of 1352 (814835)
07-13-2017 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1304 by Pollux
07-13-2017 12:57 AM


Re: Strata (3)
The finer you draw your time scale lines the more all you are talking about is microevolution within a Kind, which makes all claims to any particular fossil order pure fantasy. You can claim order on the level of reptile to mammal, but not on the level of species of trilobites.

As for volcanism, my understanding is that most of it would have occurred after the Flood, at the time of the tectonic splitting of the continents.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
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Posts: 26604
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1310 of 1352 (814836)
07-13-2017 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1306 by Pollux
07-13-2017 1:16 AM


Re: Permian extinction
Hi Faith
How did the Flood manage to mimic a massive extinction of 96% of marine and 70% terrestrial vertebrates at the end of the Permian, with Lystrosaurus being the main vertebrate survivor?

Hi Pollux.
This is a nonsensical question from the point of view of a Floodist because there was no extinction, that's all a weird artifact of the Old Earth theory. All the Flood did was lay down sediments full of carcasses. Some of those layers of sediment contained lots of carcasses, some contained few to none. There was a near-extinction was of all life, however, from Precambrian through Holocene, shown in the abundance of fossils, not in any supposed lack of them.

This was followed by a mimicking of a slow increase in biodiversity while isotopes were sorted to make the recovery seem to take millions of years. How did the Flood do it?

The Flood just buried stuff according to some kind of mechanical principles, original location and whatnot. The dating isotopes are some kind of illusion as is the fossil order.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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RAZD
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Posts: 19220
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1311 of 1352 (814841)
07-13-2017 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1310 by Faith
07-13-2017 7:41 AM


Re: Permian extinction
The Flood just buried stuff according to some kind of mechanical principles, original location and whatnot. The dating isotopes are some kind of illusion as is the fossil order.

How does that sort radioactive isotopes Faith? How does it sort different radioactive isotopes so that they still give the same age when measured?

Explain it.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Stile
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Posts: 3036
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(3)
Message 1312 of 1352 (814850)
07-13-2017 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1300 by Faith
07-13-2017 12:42 AM


Thinkity Thinking about Living in a Depositional Environment
Faith writes:

Um, nothing could have lived in a "depositional environment" that became a rock in a stack of rocks. Think think think thinkity think.

Hi Faith,

We can return to this example you seemed to be understanding where you agreed (at least, hypothetically) that things could live in a "depositional environment" for at least 50,000 years.

I'll copy the last part we agreed upon here, as well as a link below to the last message I sent you that you didn't reply to.
I think it's fairly on-topic about flood geology stuffs, so we can continue right here, if you'd like.

quote:
Okay, let's move on a bit and see where we go. Again, the italics is just a copy of the stuff we've already gone over in more detail, and the normal text is the next-step.


We'll take your simple environment #1 with a realistic amount of sedimentation: About a quarter of a millimeter per year.
This means that it will take about 100 years for something to be buried an inch deep.
We have 100 years going by. Creatures are growing up, dying, decomposing. Plants are growing and being eaten, trees are getting hit by lightning. Some fall over, some keep growing. But no living things are being buried. No habitats are being destroyed. There's simply an inch of sediment to deal with over the course of 100 years.
But... all the creatures that lived in year 1 are all dead by year 100. They are all decomposed and eaten away by scavengers, bugs and bacteria.
During year 1, an asteroid dropped onto the surface, leaving a chunk of lead 6" across. This chunk of lead just sits there. Nothing touches it, nothing moves it. There's no reason for any living creature (even bugs/bacteria) to take any interest in it.
After 100 years, this chunk of lead is surrounded by 1 inch of sediment.

This whole process continues. Creatures live and die. Plants live and die. Habitats are moved or re-arranged. The sediment keeps piling up. Another hundred years, another inch surrounds our chunk of lead from the asteroid 200 years ago.

Fast forward 2500 years.
Our piece of lead from year one is now buried under 2-feet of sediment. Everything organic that existed at year 1 is now long dead. Some of the habitats are destroyed, others were re-arranged over the years, others were moved completely. The surface is still only dealing with an extra inch of sediment every 100 years.
The surface itself, though, still contains a thriving landscape. It still contains creatures and plants and trees. They live and die and decompose. They still go about their business of "dealing with" the extra inch of sediment every 100 years.

Obviously, the trees and creatures that exist within the similar landscape at 2500 years are not the same trees and creatures and existed before. These trees and creatures are simply long-long-descendants of the ones alive during year 1. Yet they live very similar lives... just dealing with the extra 1 inch of sediment every year. Trees and plants grow faster than that, so they stay perfectly fine at the surface. Creatures move around so they just stay on top of the incoming sediment.

Keep going for 25 000 years.
The chunk of lead is now 20 feet under the surface. The surface, however, is still growing away as a lush landscape. Plants are still growing, dying. Trees are still growing, some falling over, some destroyed in forest fires. Creatures are still scurrying about in new habitats they find/make during their time. Every living creature easily overcomes the incoming inch of sediment every 100 years.
At this depth of 20 feet, though... all the sediment at this depth is starting to compress together due to the weight of the 20 feet of sediment on top of it. This 20-foot-deep sediment used to be at the surface 25 000 years ago when the chunk of lead fell onto it. 25 000 years ago this sediment was the landscape... it had trees, creatures and all sorts of stuff living on it. Now, however, all this year-1 sediment is buried 20 feet under, along with our chunk of lead. And it's starting to get pressed together by the pressure on top of it caused by 20 feet of sediment.

Now we're at 50 000 years.
The chunk of lead is buried by 40 feet of sediment.
The sediment at the same level (40 feet under) has even more pressure on it, and it starts to squeeze out the little bits of moisture that are still in it. This process is still just starting. No rock yet. Just very compressed, pressurized sediment with 40 feet of sediment weighing down on top of it.
At this 50 000 year mark, at the surface, we still have a lush landscape. Still growing and dying with creatures and living things simply dealing with their extra inch of sediment every year.

The elevation changes and the ocean starts encroaching into the land above our chunk of lead.

The ocean comes in at a rate of 0.001 miles each year. That's about 5 feet in-land each year. Plenty of time for animals to re-arrange their habitats on the surface. To move away completely. To just eat elsewhere. Or to live and die as they've been doing for 50 000 years now.

Each year, 5 feet of our surface-terrestrial-landscape dies off and is ruined by the incoming ocean.
Each year, 5 feet of more-ocean is created as the beach-area moves further and further inland.
Just as creatures can easily deal with the extra inch of sediment every 100 years... they are also able to deal with the 5-feet less of their landscape every year. They just move further inland as well.

At 100 000 years, the ocean has moved in 50 miles.
Sedimentation continues.
The sediment more-than-50-miles inland is still the same "terrestrial sediment" accumulating from before.
However, the sediment above our chunk of lead is now "marine sediment" that is different from terrestrial sediment.

The landscape is still on-going, with creatures and trees and plants living and dying. It's just not going on like this over our chunk of lead anymore. It's going on like that "50 miles inland" and beyond that, now.
The "landscape" above our chunk of lead is now a marine-scape (I don't know the word?) it has fish and other ocean-creatures living above it now.

The fish swim around, and continue with their lives and deaths and off-spring, dealing with the extra inch of sediment every 100 years.

Our chunk of lead is now buried 80 feet below the bottom of the ocean, 50 miles from shore.


Alright. Let's see what comes up now that we have the water move in overtop our chunk of lead.

The main points for the rock-formation are as follows:
-the rock is now 80-feet deep, with 80 feet of sediment above it (40 feet of terrestrial-sediment, and 40 feet of marine-sediment).
-the sediment around the chunk of lead is now 5% along it's way to becoming rock.

The main points for the non-destroyed surface (the "landscape") are as follows:
-the landscape continues on land... now 50 miles away from the chunk of lead... still growing trees and plants and creatures as happily as ever
-the marine-scape continues above the chunk of lead... still swimming fish and other ocean dwelling creatures. They are also happy.

Message 1110 from thread The Geological Timescale is Fiction whose only reality is stacks of rock


My last reply to you where you stopped responding because you wanted to take a break:

Message 1144 from thread The Geological Timescale is Fiction whose only reality is stacks of rock


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1300 by Faith, posted 07-13-2017 12:42 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(3)
Message 1313 of 1352 (814851)
07-13-2017 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1310 by Faith
07-13-2017 7:41 AM


Re: Permian extinction
The dating isotopes are some kind of illusion as is the fossil order.

Then your god is a liar.


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jar
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Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 1314 of 1352 (814852)
07-13-2017 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1313 by New Cat's Eye
07-13-2017 10:12 AM


Re: Permian extinction
While the Bible shows God as a liar, in this case it's less a lie and more just a conjob, a trickster, a joker, a fraud.

AbE: and since Faith claims the Bible is God Breathed then the God is also really stupid; going to all the trouble of faking all (not just some but ALL) the data and then writing stories that expose the conjob.

Edited by jar, : see AbE


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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edge
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Posts: 4002
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1315 of 1352 (814853)
07-13-2017 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1309 by Faith
07-13-2017 7:34 AM


Re: Strata (3)
The finer you draw your time scale lines the more all you are talking about is microevolution within a Kind, which makes all claims to any particular fossil order pure fantasy. You can claim order on the level of reptile to mammal, but not on the level of species of trilobites.

But the 'microevolution' of trilobites still expresses the passage of time, does it not?

Are you saying that this microevolution was just another rapid event that occurred within a year? If so, you must be a super-evolutionist, yes?

And why does that make the fossil order a fantasy? Can you show us where it was wrong?

Why is glossopleura always above olenellus in the stratigraphic record? Wouldn't a flood mix them up with crabs and clams?

As for volcanism, my understanding is that most of it would have occurred after the Flood, at the time of the tectonic splitting of the continents.

And what is your understanding based on?

Can you tell us how life would survive on a planet where all of the volcanism occurred in, essentially, 2000 years?


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 Message 1309 by Faith, posted 07-13-2017 7:34 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
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Posts: 2994
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 1316 of 1352 (814854)
07-13-2017 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1300 by Faith
07-13-2017 12:42 AM


Re: Strata (2)
Oh Jeebus! Are you still blathering such absolute nonsense?

LEARN SOMETHING!! And try to THINK for once in your life!


This message is a reply to:
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edge
Member
Posts: 4002
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1317 of 1352 (814874)
07-13-2017 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1312 by Stile
07-13-2017 10:09 AM


Re: Thinkity Thinking about Living in a Depositional Environment
...

The landscape is still on-going, with creatures and trees and plants living and dying. It's just not going on like this over our chunk of lead anymore. It's going on like that "50 miles inland" and beyond that, now.
The "landscape" above our chunk of lead is now a marine-scape (I don't know the word?) it has fish and other ocean-creatures living above it now.

The fish swim around, and continue with their lives and deaths and off-spring, dealing with the extra inch of sediment every 100 years.

Our chunk of lead is now buried 80 feet below the bottom of the ocean, 50 miles from shore.


I would add that the rising sea-level is a continent-wide process, resulting in a continental-scale set of strata.

By the way, this is Walther's Law in effect, something that Faith claims to understand.

How about 'seascape'?

ETA: Also note that the specimen is not of the same age as the enclosing sediments, but it was deposited at the same time.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


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edge
Member
Posts: 4002
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1318 of 1352 (814875)
07-13-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1316 by dwise1
07-13-2017 10:32 AM


Re: Strata (2)
Oh Jeebus! Are you still blathering such absolute nonsense?
LEARN SOMETHING!! And try to THINK for once in your life!

Tiresome, isn't it?

Honestly, "evos" have to be some of the most patient people in the world.


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Faith
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Posts: 26604
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1319 of 1352 (814876)
07-13-2017 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1315 by edge
07-13-2017 10:17 AM


Re: Strata (3)
But the 'microevolution' of trilobites still expresses the passage of time, does it not?

Are you saying that this microevolution was just another rapid event that occurred within a year? If so, you must be a super-evolutionist, yes?

Nothing evolved or microevolved during the year of the Flood. All that happened during the Flood was that living things died and were buried in layers of sediment. Whatever groups of trilobites existed got carried in sediments and buried.

The only life on the planet at the end of the Flood was whatever had survived on the ark plus some sea life.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 26604
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1320 of 1352 (814877)
07-13-2017 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1312 by Stile
07-13-2017 10:09 AM


Re: Thinkity Thinking about Living in a Depositional Environment
I was going along with your scenario just to be pleasant, but by now I've lost all interest, sorry. In reality it's obvious that nothing could have lived where the sediments were deposited over thousands of square miles that became the strata in the Geological Column. Nothing could have been living already from the previous deposition, and nothing could have evolved from anything previous for that reason and even if something did live it would have been buried by the next deposit. Thinkity thinking should get all that across.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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