Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 91 (8839 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 05-26-2018 4:07 AM
270 online now:
caffeine, ICANT, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat) (4 members, 266 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Calvin
Post Volume:
Total: 832,482 Year: 7,305/29,783 Month: 1,529/1,708 Week: 420/474 Day: 9/68 Hour: 1/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1213
14
1516
...
32NextFF
Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Faith
Member
Posts: 28070
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 196 of 467 (832902)
05-13-2018 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by jar
05-13-2018 8:11 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
What is actually written is what I follow. You on the other hand don't.

You follow a cult. I don't.

The Bible was directly and personally inspired by God, meaning the men who wrote it were guided by God.

The Bible is a compilation of Spirit-inspired writings by God's own chosen prophets and apostles.

The real question is how you got so misguided.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by jar, posted 05-13-2018 8:11 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2018 12:03 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 199 by jar, posted 05-14-2018 7:26 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 200 by NoNukes, posted 05-14-2018 9:23 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13885
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 197 of 467 (832905)
05-14-2018 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Faith
05-13-2018 10:26 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
quote:

What is actually written is what I follow.

We all know that isn’t true.

quote:

The Bible was directly and personally inspired by God, meaning the men who wrote it were guided by God.

Which is rather different from your “traditional” claim that God was the actual author. Which would be a surprising change if you could actually support that view from the Bible as you claimed. But of course we know you can’t. You can only cite men who misrepresent the Bible instead.

quote:

The real question is how you got so misguided.

Maybe he doesn’t think your “traditions” overrule the text of the Bible. I don't either. Perhaps you should try supporting your idea that they do ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 10:26 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13885
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 198 of 467 (832906)
05-14-2018 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by GDR
05-13-2018 5:14 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
quote:

OK. Give me a verse.

So you can’t find any ? Any verse in the Tanakh where the context clearly indicates that it means the Logos rather than the more conventional meaning would do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 5:14 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by GDR, posted 05-14-2018 12:01 PM PaulK has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30355
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 199 of 467 (832915)
05-14-2018 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Faith
05-13-2018 10:26 PM


Faith provides no evidence yet again.
Faith writes:

What is actually written is what I follow. You on the other hand don't.

Now you know that is not true Faith, you have consistently denied the simple words actually written in the Bible as I have pointed out on numerous occasions. For example, you have denied that there are two creation myths in the Genesis fables and that the Gods described are different, the methods different, the order different and that the God in Genesis 2&3 is pretty much just learning on the job, fumbling, not honest or even rational.

You have claimed that there is a "Fall" in the Bible while what actually is written says that man was elevated to be more like God.

Faith writes:

The Bible was directly and personally inspired by God, meaning the men who wrote it were guided by God.

Yet what is written in the Bible shows that they could not get the stories straight, kept expanding and elaborating on the tales, made prophecies that never came true as well as made factual errors.

Faith writes:

The Bible is a compilation of Spirit-inspired writings by God's own chosen prophets and apostles.

Again, you have never presented any evidence to support that assertion or in fact identified the writers of the stories.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 10:26 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10608
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 200 of 467 (832916)
05-14-2018 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Faith
05-13-2018 10:26 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
What is actually written is what I follow. You on the other hand don't.

You just told us differently. You said that you follow a "traditional Christian interpretation". Or something like that.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 10:26 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 10:26 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28070
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 201 of 467 (832920)
05-14-2018 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by NoNukes
05-14-2018 9:23 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
What is actually written, read correctly the way it is supposed to be read, is what the traditional interpretation reads.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by NoNukes, posted 05-14-2018 9:23 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by NoNukes, posted 05-14-2018 10:57 AM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10608
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 202 of 467 (832927)
05-14-2018 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Faith
05-14-2018 10:26 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
What is actually written, read correctly the way it is supposed to be read, is what the traditional interpretation reads.

If that were the case, you would be able to defend your position based on the text alone. But you cannot do that. You always fall back on, "well, some old dudes said it means X."

You are absolutely the least logical person here.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 10:26 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 1:13 PM NoNukes has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 203 of 467 (832928)
05-14-2018 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by PaulK
05-14-2018 12:11 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
PaulK writes:

So you can’t find any ? Any verse in the Tanakh where the context clearly indicates that it means the Logos rather than the more conventional meaning would do.


Read through Genesis 1 and just look at the number of times where it says “God said” let there be whatever the next act of creation was. The Hebrews used the idea that God spoke the world into existence. That is the “Word of God” which metaphorically includes God’s wisdom, creativity, nature etc.
quote:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.”
7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.
8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so.
10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so.
12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,
15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so.
16God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth,
18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.”
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.”
23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.
25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Then we come to the Gospel of John Chap 1.

quote:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

That is very different than how the term is used in this passage from 1 Kings 12.

quote:
22 But this word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God:
23 “Say to Rehoboam son of Solomon king of Judah, to all Judah and Benjamin, and to the rest of the people,
24 ‘This is what the LORD says: Do not go up to fight against your brothers, the Israelites. Go home, every one of you, for this is my doing.’ ” So they obeyed the word of the LORD and went home again, as the LORD had ordered.
If you notice too, when John uses it Word is spelled with a capital W whereas in 1st Kings it is spelled with a small w.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2018 12:11 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2018 12:13 PM GDR has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13885
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 204 of 467 (832930)
05-14-2018 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by GDR
05-14-2018 12:01 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
I note that Genesis 1 does not actually support your claim - you must read John into it for that. And of course, I already knew that John had the idea of the Logos in it.

However, 1 Kings 12 clearly proves my point since it uses God’s word in a sense where the ordinary meaning of “word” is more appropriate than the Logos.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by GDR, posted 05-14-2018 12:01 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by GDR, posted 05-14-2018 1:36 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28070
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 205 of 467 (832932)
05-14-2018 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by NoNukes
05-14-2018 10:57 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Funny, I've said that to you many times, how you are the least logical person here. Is tit for tatting me that satisfying to you?

Those "old dudes" are all the big thinkers of the Christian tradition, plus many in today's Reformed circles, but here I'm up against the most amazing collection of "liberal Christians" I've ever seen assembled in one supposedly neutral place. I've presented my views many many times and there's no way anybody here is going to accept them because it's all against your own liberal views, so there's no point in pursuing it any further. I continue to be astonished but oh well.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by NoNukes, posted 05-14-2018 10:57 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2018 1:33 PM Faith has responded
 Message 215 by NoNukes, posted 05-14-2018 7:23 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13885
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 206 of 467 (832934)
05-14-2018 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Faith
05-14-2018 1:13 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
quote:

Funny, I've said that to you many times, how you are the least logical person here. Is tit for tatting me that satisfying to you?

At least NoNukes had pretty good evidence, which is more than can be said for you. Your irrationally is one of your major handicaps here, but of course you would rather make false attacks on anyone who disagrees with you than fix the problem.

quote:

Those "old dudes" are all the big thinkers of the Christian tradition, plus many in today's Reformed circles, but here I'm up against the most amazing collection of "liberal Christians" I've ever seen assembled in one supposedly neutral place. I've presented my views many many times and there's no way anybody here is going to accept them because it's all against your own liberal views, so there's no point in pursuing it any further. I continue to be astonished but oh well.

On one side we have you citing your opinions and calling them “traditional” - you don’t even do much to support that claim. On the other side we have the Bible. I think that anyone who calls themselves Christian really ought to be going with the Bible. Why don’t you ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 1:13 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 1:44 PM PaulK has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 207 of 467 (832935)
05-14-2018 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by PaulK
05-14-2018 12:13 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
PaulK writes:

I note that Genesis 1 does not actually support your claim - you must read John into it for that. And of course, I already knew that John had the idea of the Logos in it.
However, 1 Kings 12 clearly proves my point since it uses God’s word in a sense where the ordinary meaning of “word” is more appropriate than the Logos.


OK. Here are the original 2 posts on this.
GDR writes:

When the Biblical writers use the term "Word of God" it is not referring to the Scriptures. It is referring to the Logos and can be also translated as the "wisdom" of God. In Genesis it metaphorically talks about God speaking the world into existence, (such as in God said let there be light etc. ) and so it is in reference to that. The "Word of God" put another way is the essence, the wisdom and the power of God when used in the Bible.


PaulK writes:

Or it might refer to the words attributed to God in the Bible. While the Bible never claims divine authorship it does have sections that are claim to be God’s words, as set down by the human writers.


There is a big difference in the way it is used. When it uses the term “Word of God” with a capital W for Word where the 3 words form a noun on their own, it is quite different from this quote from Kings 1 “but this word of God” using a small w for word, and the word is a noun on its own with the of God part of the phrase acting as an adjective.
However, you agree that John is referring to the Word as Logos so the point is pretty much moot anyway.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2018 12:13 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2018 1:46 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28070
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 208 of 467 (832936)
05-14-2018 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by PaulK
05-14-2018 1:33 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
It must be nice to be one of the majority and always have someone who will back you up.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2018 1:33 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2018 1:50 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13885
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 209 of 467 (832937)
05-14-2018 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by GDR
05-14-2018 1:36 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Aside from the fact that capitalisation is a feature of the translation we were talking about the idea of the word of God in general. Even you didn’t consistently use capitalisation. More importantly it started with my reply to Faith which was certainly dealing with lower-case “word of God” verses like Isaiah 40:8.

If you are going to consider the context you need to consider all of it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by GDR, posted 05-14-2018 1:36 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13885
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 210 of 467 (832938)
05-14-2018 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
05-14-2018 1:44 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
If I’m part of the majority it’s probably because I have truth and reason on my side. You should try it.

Now are you going to make a rational point or just whine that you are losing because your entire case consists of calling your position “traditional” ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 1:44 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 2:00 PM PaulK has responded

    
RewPrev1
...
1213
14
1516
...
32NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018