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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 1276 of 1581 (839405)
09-07-2018 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1274 by ringo
09-07-2018 2:43 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
You're the one who's desparate to assure yourself that the Bible doesn't say what it says.

Seems clear enough to me:

... for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. (2:17b)

OR

New International Version

but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

Okay. To be fair .... here are a couple a versions interpret a typical day as you want it.

Contemporary English Version

except the one that has the power to let you know the difference between right and wrong. If you eat any fruit from that tree, you will die before the day is over!"

Good News Translation

except the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad. You must not eat the fruit of that tree; if you do, you will die the same day."

Those are paraphrased versions.
It is still not a major problem.

quote:

I have no axe to grind. I don't care what the Bible says any more than I care what Dilbert says.


That's why you have no axe, no sharp one at least.

Okay I gave you examples of the way you want to understand it.
Though you are now on a SOUR GRAPES attitude - "Well I didn't care anyway."

If you don't care for what the Bible says I don't know why your haunting the Bible Study room.

I have a slight suspicion that now that I have given you some English versions that interpret the Hebrew to mean something like the SAME DAY, you might just revive your apathy to say - "Told you so."

quote:

Genesis says what it says. If that doesn't tally with what you think it "should" say, that's too bad - but it still says what it says. They didn't die "when" they ate the fruit.

Um, You don't give a hoot what it says?
Or you do give a hoot what it says?

Which way from here on out ??

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1274 by ringo, posted 09-07-2018 2:43 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1277 by ringo, posted 09-07-2018 5:23 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 1278 by Tangle, posted 09-07-2018 5:42 PM jaywill has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1277 of 1581 (839406)
09-07-2018 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1276 by jaywill
09-07-2018 5:02 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
jaywill writes:

Okay I gave you examples of the way you want to understand it.


It isn' t the way I want to understand it. It's the way it's written.

If you were honest, you'd acknowledge that the word "when" does not refer to nine hundred years in the future. YOU would not use it that way, so why do you pretend that the Bible would? Your child says he's hungry and you tell him he can eat "when" he gets home. You do not mean nine hundred years in the future. You don't even mean sometime within the 24-hour day. "When" is a specific point on the time line - when you get home, when you eat the fruit. It is not the equivalent of "eventually".

Translating the word as "when" instead of "day" makes your interpretation worse, not better.

jaywill writes:

If you don't care for what the Bible says I don't know why your haunting the Bible Study room.


I'm here to point out your errors. I may have to hire an assistant.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1276 by jaywill, posted 09-07-2018 5:02 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1280 by jaywill, posted 09-08-2018 4:32 AM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6229
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1278 of 1581 (839407)
09-07-2018 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1276 by jaywill
09-07-2018 5:02 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
Jaywill writes:

Okay. To be fair .... here are a couple a versions interpret a typical day as you want it.

Right, you need several interpretations of the word “day”.

How does that work? If it's an inconvenient version for you it becomes more than the time it takes for one lump of daylight and one of dark it can become something entirely different, like hundreds of years?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1276 by jaywill, posted 09-07-2018 5:02 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1282 by jaywill, posted 09-08-2018 5:24 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 1283 by jaywill, posted 09-08-2018 5:27 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 1284 by jaywill, posted 09-08-2018 5:29 AM Tangle has responded

  
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1279 of 1581 (839425)
09-08-2018 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1275 by Faith
09-07-2018 4:27 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
Basically I'm with you on these beasts.

Many studies on Daniel and Revelation talk about the beasts, horns, locusts, etc. As you might see I have a desire to more closely examine Christ and the church, the overcomers, etc.

I think there is a shortage of emphasis on Christ and the church in End Times discussions.

But I admit many mysterious passages are devoted to the enemies of God.

You are probably going to fine me skewing my talk more in the direction of Christ and what is called the testimony of Jesus in Revelation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1275 by Faith, posted 09-07-2018 4:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1280 of 1581 (839426)
09-08-2018 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1277 by ringo
09-07-2018 5:23 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
We're through.
You've made my job simplier.

Go enjoy your Dilbert.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1277 by ringo, posted 09-07-2018 5:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1290 by ringo, posted 09-08-2018 11:35 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 1281 of 1581 (839427)
09-08-2018 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1270 by Aussie
09-07-2018 1:58 PM


quote:
Most of the "Wise guys" you are having this conversation with are actually wise enough to not have to pretend to have some magical crystal ball insight into a predetermined future for humanity.

That would be you.


No, I claim no crystal ball.

What we do have is a track record of God's faithfulness. For instance Christ was prophesied to come the first time, by centuries. And He CAME.

We have very good fulfillment of prophecy AND indications of some of the WAYS in which God kept His word, testing men's hearts, leaving room for man's obedience, things like that.

We figure some of His ways have not changed. And as He fulfilled prophecy in the first coming with certain tests to those wanting and expecting His first coming, in like manner we can bet He'll do similarly.

No crystal ball.
I neither insist that I could not be wrong about some things.

We have the Bible to help interpret itself.
We have a taste for the way God moves.

We have a track record of God's previous faithfulness.
And we have the Holy Spirit to help guide us into the most pertinent aspects of the truth.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1270 by Aussie, posted 09-07-2018 1:58 PM Aussie has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1282 of 1581 (839429)
09-08-2018 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1278 by Tangle
09-07-2018 5:42 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
Right, you need several interpretations of the word “day”.

How does that work? If it's an inconvenient version for you it becomes more than the time it takes for one lump of daylight and one of dark it can become something entirely different, like hundreds of years?


When it mentions Evening and morning - one day. that pretty much indicates to me the writer has a solar day being communicated.

I understand Genesis seven days as God recovering a world which had been in some unspecified time before verse 3 became waste and emptiness.

YOM in some other places, not being bounded with an evening and morning may conform to one of the OTHER legitimate meanings of YOM.

Strong"s Exhaustive Concordance - Hebrew / Chaldea Dictionary

Yowm or (yom) Entry 3117

"from an unusual root mean. to be hot .
a day (as in warm hourass),
whether lit. (from ssunrise to sunset, or fromone sinset to the next),
or fig. (a space of time defined bu an associated term),


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1278 by Tangle, posted 09-07-2018 5:42 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1283 of 1581 (839430)
09-08-2018 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1278 by Tangle
09-07-2018 5:42 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
Right, you need several interpretations of the word “day”.

How does that work? If it's an inconvenient version for you it becomes more than the time it takes for one lump of daylight and one of dark it can become something entirely different, like hundreds of years?


When it mentions Evening and morning - one day. that pretty much indicates to me the writer has a solar day being communicated.

I understand Genesis seven days as God recovering a world which had been in some unspecified time before verse 3 became waste and emptiness.

YOM in some other places, not being bounded with an evening and morning may conform to one of the OTHER legitimate meanings of YOM.

Strong"s Exhaustive Concordance - Hebrew / Chaldea Dictionary

Yowm or (yom) Entry 3117

"from an unusual root mean. to be hot .
a day (as in warm hourass),
whether lit. (from ssunrise to sunset, or fromone sinset to the next),
or fig. (a space of time defined by an associated term),


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1278 by Tangle, posted 09-07-2018 5:42 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1284 of 1581 (839431)
09-08-2018 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1278 by Tangle
09-07-2018 5:42 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
Right, you need several interpretations of the word “day”.

How does that work? If it's an inconvenient version for you it becomes more than the time it takes for one lump of daylight and one of dark it can become something entirely different, like hundreds of years?


When it mentions Evening and morning - one day. that pretty much indicates to me the writer has a solar day being communicated.

I understand Genesis seven days as God recovering a world which had in some unspecified time before verse 3 became waste and emptiness. A previous violent overthrow.

My belief is coined by some as "Gap Theory" - an interval of unspecified time between Genesis 1:1 and verse 2.

Bible says God MADE the earth in six days, not that He created it in six days.

YOM in some other places, not being bounded with an evening and morning may conform to one of the OTHER legitimate meanings of YOM.

Strong"s Exhaustive Concordance - Hebrew / Chaldea Dictionary

Yowm or (yom) Entry 3117

"from an unusual root mean. to be hot .
a day (as in warm hours),
whether lit. (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next),
or fig. a space of time defined by an associated term,
(often used adv.) + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily ... lasting, - more) x full, life+ elder, x end + old, + outlived,
season,
space
then,
process of time
as at other times, + in trouble,
weather, (as) when (a, the, within a)
while (that) x whole (+ age)
(full) year (-ly) + younger

It can be pretty technical. I am just copying from the Hebrew Dictionary as far as I am able to here. Some of it throws the Hyper Text into confusion.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1278 by Tangle, posted 09-07-2018 5:42 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1285 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2018 6:42 AM jaywill has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6229
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1285 of 1581 (839439)
09-08-2018 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1284 by jaywill
09-08-2018 5:29 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
Given that the bible is a collection of simple stories told to simple folk, a 'day' is actually a day. To say otherwise is simply lying to fit whatever it is you need to believe.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1284 by jaywill, posted 09-08-2018 5:29 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1286 by jaywill, posted 09-08-2018 9:35 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 1294 by Phat, posted 09-08-2018 12:28 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 1301 by Faith, posted 09-08-2018 1:36 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1286 of 1581 (839441)
09-08-2018 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1285 by Tangle
09-08-2018 6:42 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
Given that the bible is a collection of simple stories told to simple folk, a 'day' is actually a day. To say otherwise is simply lying to fit whatever it is you need to believe.

You think the writer of the details of the Tabernacle with all its precise measurements and technical specifications was just a "simple folk". I don't

You think the writer of the voluminous geographic description of the boundaries of the land of Canaan, how its was aportioned up between the twelve tribes was written by "simple folk". I don't.

You think the long histories of genealogical information was written by "simple folk". I don't.

You think the Table of Nations describing how humans divided and settled into tribes, clans, families, social groups was compiled by "simple folk". I don't think great amounts of the Pentateuch reflects the writing of "simple folk."

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1285 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2018 6:42 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1289 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2018 11:14 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1287 of 1581 (839442)
09-08-2018 9:50 AM


simplicity verses naivete
"Now the serpent was more crafty than any other animal of the field that Jehovah God had made ... (Gen 4:1)

I learned a long time ago not to confuse [some] accounts of simplicity with naivete. Very good teachers are masters at their material to the extent that they can break down intricate and profound issues is quite eccesible ways for the consumption of many people.

Let's take the talking serpent for an example.

it is not just modern people who realize animals can't speak. Thousands of years ago people knew JUST AS WELL that animals are not suppose to talk.

God has a way of communicating a profound truth to the largest number of people in all generations. There is a great cosmic being and angelic creation of immense former authority. And he is a adversary to God and the eternal purpose of God. We will read more of him in future books of the Bible.

He is a creation of God yet turned himself to be the opposite of all that God is. He could not usurp God. So he became the opposite of all that God is. This situation God must communicate to the most number of people in the world for generations to come.

There exists an INTELLIGENCE in the universe beside God and beside Man. That intelligence is subtle, evil, diametrically opposed to God, and desirous to ruin the very meaning of man's reason for being created.

A speaking serpent will do the job. The most number of people in the world will get something of the truth. There is about an evil nemesis to God Almighty who is cunning enough to deceive the whole world. By reading ON the picture is filled in.

I learned not to mistake simplicity for naivete.


Replies to this message:
 Message 1288 by jar, posted 09-08-2018 10:47 AM jaywill has not yet responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1288 of 1581 (839443)
09-08-2018 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1287 by jaywill
09-08-2018 9:50 AM


Re: simplicity verses naivete
Except for the fact that in the story the serpent still tells the truth while the God does not.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1287 by jaywill, posted 09-08-2018 9:50 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6229
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1289 of 1581 (839444)
09-08-2018 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1286 by jaywill
09-08-2018 9:35 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
Jaywill writes:

You think the writer of the details of the Tabernacle with all its precise measurements and technical specifications was just a "simple folk".

Yes.

I don't

I guess you've been wrong before.

You think the writer of the voluminous geographic description of the boundaries of the land of Canaan, how its was aportioned up between the twelve tribes was written by "simple folk". I don't.

You think the long histories of genealogical information was written by "simple folk". I don't.

You think the Table of Nations describing how humans divided and settled into tribes, clans, families, social groups was compiled by "simple folk". I don't think great amounts of the Pentateuch reflects the writing of "simple folk."

Is there a reason why I should care what you think? You appear to believe stone-age myths but not fully evidenced modern day events. You're a zealot that thinks that making stuff up about what the bible actually says is somehow Christian. The bible is fiction, not history.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1286 by jaywill, posted 09-08-2018 9:35 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 1290 of 1581 (839447)
09-08-2018 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1280 by jaywill
09-08-2018 4:32 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
jaywill writes:

We're through.
You've made my job simplier.


Yes, ignoring the truth is simple. If there was any substance to your position, you wouldn't be so quick to run away.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1280 by jaywill, posted 09-08-2018 4:32 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
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