Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 80 (8863 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-19-2018 8:41 AM
208 online now:
PaulK, Percy (Admin), Tangle (3 members, 205 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: rldawnca
Happy Birthday: AdminPhat
Post Volume:
Total: 838,661 Year: 13,484/29,783 Month: 930/1,576 Week: 142/303 Day: 2/31 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
8586
87
8889
...
93Next
Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1291 of 1394 (839448)
09-08-2018 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1287 by jaywill
09-08-2018 9:50 AM


Re: simplicity verses naivete
jaywill writes:

Thousands of years ago people knew JUST AS WELL that animals are not suppose to talk.


And they were bright enough to see the clue that the story is not to be taken literally. You, unfortunately, are not.

jaywill writes:

God has a way of communicating a profound truth to the largest number of people in all generations.


And He can do it through more sophisticated means than talking animals.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1287 by jaywill, posted 09-08-2018 9:50 AM jaywill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1292 by Phat, posted 09-08-2018 12:18 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11131
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1292 of 1394 (839449)
09-08-2018 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1291 by ringo
09-08-2018 11:42 AM


Re: simplicity verses naivete
jaywill writes:

God has a way of communicating a profound truth to the largest number of people in all generations.


ringo writes:

And He can do it through more sophisticated means than talking animals.

At last, you are arguing that God is hypothetical and is brighter than many believers give Him credit for...but wait...if I recall correctly, you don't believe He exists. What makes YOU so sophisticated?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1291 by ringo, posted 09-08-2018 11:42 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1293 by ringo, posted 09-08-2018 12:24 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1293 of 1394 (839450)
09-08-2018 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1292 by Phat
09-08-2018 12:18 PM


Re: simplicity verses naivete
Phat writes:

At last, you are arguing that God is hypothetical and is brighter than many believers give Him credit for...but wait...if I recall correctly, you don't believe He exists.


I don't believe Long John Silver exists either. But if jaywill insisted that Long John Silver flew a balloon to Kansas in Treasure Island, I could point out that he was wrong.

Phat writes:

What makes YOU so sophisticated?


I was saying that the Hebrews thousands of years ago were sophisticated enough to understand that a talking snake was a literary device.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1292 by Phat, posted 09-08-2018 12:18 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1295 by Phat, posted 09-08-2018 12:30 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11131
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1294 of 1394 (839451)
09-08-2018 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1285 by Tangle
09-08-2018 6:42 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
Tangle writes:

Given that the bible is a collection of simple stories told to simple folk, a 'day' is actually a day. To say otherwise is simply lying to fit whatever it is you need to believe.

The mistake that you are making is believing that since folk are no longer simple and understand science that they can enlighten the rest of the species, liberating them from "Bronze Age Myths" and finally moving our species forward to a better time (which you have evidence is happening)....but what you do not see is that this is precisely what is predicted.
Daniel 12:4 writes:

But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

The jury of reality is still out on whether the book is warning us not to forget the God Who created and sustains us in favor of our own fallible wisdom and attempt to live a life guided by our own evidence-based progress.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1285 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2018 6:42 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1302 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2018 2:02 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1303 by jar, posted 09-08-2018 2:30 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11131
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1295 of 1394 (839452)
09-08-2018 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1293 by ringo
09-08-2018 12:24 PM


Re: simplicity verses naivete
ringo writes:

I was saying that the Hebrews thousands of years ago were sophisticated enough to understand that a talking snake was a literary device.

And Daniels writers were sophisticated enough to see that knowledge would increase, though I doubt they had visions of an internet, science, and evidence-based thinking apart from the need for a God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1293 by ringo, posted 09-08-2018 12:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1296 by ringo, posted 09-08-2018 12:43 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1296 of 1394 (839453)
09-08-2018 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1295 by Phat
09-08-2018 12:30 PM


Re: simplicity verses naivete
Phat writes:

... I doubt they had visions of an internet, science, and evidence-based thinking...


What makes you think they didn't have evidence-based thinking?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1295 by Phat, posted 09-08-2018 12:30 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4489
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 1297 of 1394 (839454)
09-08-2018 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1275 by Faith
09-07-2018 4:27 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
The beast from the sea has all the characteristics of the beasts of Daniel 7 rolled into one: the lion of Babylon, the bear of Medo-Persia and the leopard of Greece, and the beast itself that has all these characteristics must be the Great and Terrible fourth beast from which the little horn comes, which is usually understood to be the Roman Empire in the time of Christ's first coming.

Yes, Antichrist, Shmantichrist. I do get a little tired of going though Revelation like the centerpiece is this guy, the beast, the Antichrist and his false prophet. I'm sorry.

I'll tell you what I would really like to spend some time on. It is the positive aspects of Christ as He addresses each of the seven churches. This stuff is not insignificant.

There are so very many talks about the beasts, the frogs, the demons, the locusts, the Antichrist, etc. etc.. That certainly has its place. But it doesn't have the only place.

Do you see how rich are the descriptions of Christ as He addresses the need of each of the seven local churches according to what He IS? Oh, that there were a few eager readers to talk about this.

He draws most of His recommendations from John's initial vision.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me; and when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,

13 And in the amidst of the lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, and girded about at the breasts with a golden girdle.

14 And His head and hair were as white as white wool, as snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire;

15 And His feet were like shining bronze, as having been fired in a furnace; and His voice was like the sound of many waters.

16 And He had in His right hand seven stars; and out of His mouth proceeded a sharp two-edged sword; and His face shone as the sun shines in its power.

17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last

18 And the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

See all these wonderful qualifications of Who Christ is ? We could spend a week just talking about all the qualifications of Jesus Christ as this Great High Priest.

Each aspect is so meaningful. Nothing here should be taken for granted.
What a Christ. What an all-encompassing Overcoming Lord and Savior.

This is the One Who is and Who was and Who is coming.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1275 by Faith, posted 09-07-2018 4:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1299 by Faith, posted 09-08-2018 1:31 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4489
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1298 of 1394 (839456)
09-08-2018 1:22 PM


Christ - the main character
Faith,

Oh by the way,

I cannot remember who it was, but I think they were correct that the vision of the Son of Man coming on the clouds to the Ancient of Days is not a vision of His descending to the earth. I think I recall someone saying something like that. about Dan. 7. (albeit skeptically)

This is Christ coming on the clouds in His ascension to the Father to be inaugurated in heaven as King of kings and Lord of all. It corresponds to Revelation chapter 5 . His is COMING UP into the third heavens on the cloud to appear before the Ancient of Days.

Daniel 7:13,14

13 “I saw in the night visions,

and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a Son of Man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before Him.
14 And to Him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve Him;
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and His kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 1300 by Faith, posted 09-08-2018 1:32 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 1305 by Phat, posted 09-08-2018 3:48 PM jaywill has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1299 of 1394 (839457)
09-08-2018 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1297 by jaywill
09-08-2018 1:19 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
The reason to discuss the beast and Antichrist is so that those who go through the Tribulation will recognize better what's going on.

But I'm OK with your not wanting to discuss it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1297 by jaywill, posted 09-08-2018 1:19 PM jaywill has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1300 of 1394 (839458)
09-08-2018 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1298 by jaywill
09-08-2018 1:22 PM


Re: Christ - the main character
I don't remember that coming up but clearly it does refer to the Lord's ascension to the throne of God and not His descent to earth.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1298 by jaywill, posted 09-08-2018 1:22 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1337 by jaywill, posted 09-10-2018 8:11 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1301 of 1394 (839459)
09-08-2018 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1285 by Tangle
09-08-2018 6:42 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
Given that the bible is a collection of simple stories told to simple folk...

Where do you get such an idea? Recently I heard a former professor of English talk about her discovery of how sophisticated the Bible is as literature,k which she discovered when she decided to read it in order to debunk it. Instead she recognized that it is a "supernatural" work and it converted her to Christ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1285 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2018 6:42 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1307 by jaywill, posted 09-08-2018 8:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6080
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1302 of 1394 (839462)
09-08-2018 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1294 by Phat
09-08-2018 12:28 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
Phat writes:

but what you do not see is that this is precisely what is predicted.

It's a prediction that knowledge will increase? That makes me a prophet then. And pretty much everyone alive. That's the dumbest 'prediction' imaginable.

The jury of reality is still out on whether the book is warning us not to forget the God Who created and sustains us in favor of our own fallible wisdom and attempt to live a life guided by our own evidence-based progress.

The 'jury of reality' gave it's verdict a couple of hundred years ago. There is no supernatural.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1294 by Phat, posted 09-08-2018 12:28 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30837
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1303 of 1394 (839464)
09-08-2018 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1294 by Phat
09-08-2018 12:28 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
Phat writes:

The jury of reality is still out on whether the book is warning us not to forget the God Who created and sustains us in favor of our own fallible wisdom and attempt to live a life guided by our own evidence-based progress.

If you wish to continue worshiping Coyote and Loki then that's fine but stop pretending they are not your God.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1294 by Phat, posted 09-08-2018 12:28 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1304 by Phat, posted 09-08-2018 3:39 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11131
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1304 of 1394 (839466)
09-08-2018 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1303 by jar
09-08-2018 2:30 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
Misdirecting the audience again? How could I worship gods that exist only in literary imagination? I'm talking about the one we spell with three capital letters. The One Who created all seen and unseen. Certainly NOT the one who lied, while the allegorical snake told the truth! Which one do you worship?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1303 by jar, posted 09-08-2018 2:30 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1306 by jar, posted 09-08-2018 4:06 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11131
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1305 of 1394 (839467)
09-08-2018 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1298 by jaywill
09-08-2018 1:22 PM


Re: Christ - the main character
jaywill writes:

This is the One Who is and Who was and Who is coming.


Faith writes:

The reason to discuss the beast and Antichrist is so that those who go through the Tribulation will recognize better what's going on.

jaywill, what does it mean when it says the Beast was and is not and yet is?
We know that Jesus was, is,and will come. I have my own theories as to what it means, but I thought I would get your interpretation....and by all means, focus on Christ...He is all we really have! jar can laugh about Loki, Coyote and other literary plot devices all he wants, but his logic wont save him from the world of the future nor will it get him through any problems that come up.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1298 by jaywill, posted 09-08-2018 1:22 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1308 by jaywill, posted 09-08-2018 8:38 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
RewPrev1
...
8586
87
8889
...
93Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018