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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
Percy
Member
Posts: 17968
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 256 of 441 (837663)
08-07-2018 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Tangle
08-07-2018 2:50 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

Percy writes:

How do you know we're the right people to make the decision? What established our right to do this or gave us jurisdiction?

Who has the right to make a decision about locking someone up for a crime? For enforcing a speed limit? For preventing smoking in public places?

Who has the right to carry out law enforcement? It isn't me. But for the record I'm in favor of the appropriate authorities enforcing our criminal statutes, our speed limits, and our no smoking laws.

Why do you think this decision is outwith public policy?

"Outwith public policy"? I'm again unable to parse something you write. Did you maybe mean "outside public policy"? You never did clarify that other garbled sentence - was my guess that you meant "is" instead of "if" correct, or was it something else?

Oh, I didn't know you would permit me "women's choice" as an answer. I thought you were demanding I answer yes or no. I choose women's choice.

You finally got off the fence.

You finally included an acceptable answer in your list of permitted answers, one I already gave earlier at greater length back in Message 220:

Percy in Message 220 writes:

So what do you mean "we"? Unless you're referring to the woman then someone else is making decisions for her based on *their* feelings rather than upon objective criteria. I don't believe people have the right to impose their feelings on others. Now if people have objective evidence and arguments for what they want to impose on someone else (for example, vaccinations) then that's another matter.

Moving on:

Are you sure you think it right to allow a woman to kill her baby a moment before birth? Really?

I think you're obsessed. We've been over this. Tell me when life begins and I will, for the sake of discussion, assume your answer is accurate and use it to answer the question.

But that's not really what you want, which is for people to respond with answers about when life begins despite telling you many times they don't know. Obviously you think there's an answer and that you know it, so congratulations on your certainty.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 2:50 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 11:59 AM Percy has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3279
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 257 of 441 (837667)
08-07-2018 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Tangle
08-07-2018 10:58 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

Phat writes:

You mentioned that the medical experts would tell us when such a date would be. Thus is it true that you advocate a definite point beyond which there is no option?


Yes. Though that point will change as medical knowledge changes. Again, assuming a purely elective procedure.

I don't know if any woman has ever had an abortion as a "purely elective procedure."

However - if you mean to imply the point where "killing the fetus becomes killing a human being" then it makes some sense.

I agree that the point will change as medical knowledge changes.
I suspect that as knowledge reaches better and better levels - this point will be different for each and every baby.
Some very early in the pregnancy - if this particular baby is a quick developer.
Some later in the pregnancy - if this particular baby is a slow developer.

However, I don't think crossing such a point would mean there is "no option" either. That's naive thinking.
It simply makes the decision much more complicated.
The mother's health needs to be considered, the lives of all those involved in raising the child, as well as the expectation of a decent life for the baby.

To presume that everything will be fine if the baby just makes it past birth... is to ignore the complications involved in "being human."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 10:58 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 12:10 PM Stile has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 258 of 441 (837668)
08-07-2018 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Tangle
08-07-2018 11:00 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
LOL

Again, that has been asked and answered.

It is impossible to abort a child that has already been born.

And again, 1/1000 or 1/100 or 1/10 or 1 or 10 or 100 or 1000 seconds after a birth I still feel such decisions need to be made by the mother, possibly the father, and the medical staff involved in that particular instance; my opinion is irrelevant, and should be irrelevant, to the issue.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 11:00 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 12:14 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 259 of 441 (837669)
08-07-2018 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
08-07-2018 11:02 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Phat writes:

So would you argue against there being a law that dictates any decisions?

Again, no. I have not said that either.

But the decision should be as unique as the situation and the only folk that have all the knowledge about that particular instance are the mother, possibly the father, and the medical staff involved in that one particular instance.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 08-07-2018 11:02 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 260 of 441 (837676)
08-07-2018 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Tangle
08-07-2018 11:00 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

Do you say the same about a mother who kills her child 1/10 of a second after birth.


The timeline you are trying to construct is both phoney and absurd. There is no exact "moment of birth", so talking about tenths of a second is just stupid.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 11:00 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 12:25 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6351
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 261 of 441 (837678)
08-07-2018 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Percy
08-07-2018 11:03 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:

I think you're obsessed. We've been over this. Tell me when life begins and I will, for the sake of discussion, assume your answer is accurate and use it to answer the question.

Talking to you and Jar is like trying to hold on to a greased pig.

Neither you nor I know when life begins and we never will. But that is irrelevant because we have to decide anyway. (We being society). The question is about whether a woman should be allowed to electively abort her foetus or not. And if so, when.

But that's not really what you want, which is for people to respond with answers about when life begins despite telling you many times they don't know.

I don't care about when life begins! It's you that seems to think that accademic question matters to the decision.

Obviously you think there's an answer and that you know it, so congratulations on your certainty.

How many fucking times does this have to be said. No-one knows when life begins and we never will.

So let me try again. Do you believe that a woman should be able to abort her foetus just before it is born. To avoid further obfuscation and avoidance, I do not mean for medical reasons.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Percy, posted 08-07-2018 11:03 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Percy, posted 08-07-2018 12:24 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 281 by Phat, posted 08-07-2018 3:36 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6351
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 262 of 441 (837681)
08-07-2018 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Stile
08-07-2018 11:14 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Stile writes:

I don't know if any woman has ever had an abortion as a "purely elective procedure."

Tens of thousands of women do this. They decide that having an unplanned child right now would be inconvenient for whatever reason.

To presume that everything will be fine if the baby just makes it past birth... is to ignore the complications involved in "being human

I'm not saying anything about complications such as rape, medical emergencies or foetuses found to be with life damaging deformities. I'm trying to deal only with elective abortion and what people feel about it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Stile, posted 08-07-2018 11:14 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Stile, posted 08-07-2018 1:04 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6351
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 263 of 441 (837684)
08-07-2018 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by jar
08-07-2018 11:14 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Jar writes:

It is impossible to abort a child that has already been born.

Which is why I didn't ask you that question. This is the question I asked.

Do you say the same about a mother who kills her child 1/10 of a second after birth. If not why not?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 11:14 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 12:34 PM Tangle has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17968
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 264 of 441 (837686)
08-07-2018 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Tangle
08-07-2018 11:59 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

Percy writes:

I think you're obsessed. We've been over this. Tell me when life begins and I will, for the sake of discussion, assume your answer is accurate and use it to answer the question.


Talking to you and Jar is like trying to hold on to a greased pig.

That's only because despite repeated protestations that I have few answers, you keep pressing me for answers anyway.

Neither you nor I know when life begins and we never will. But that is irrelevant because we have to decide anyway. (We being society).

Why does society have to decide? Why isn't it the woman's choice?

The question is about whether a woman should be allowed to electively abort her foetus or not. And if so, when.

In your previous post to me (Message 238) you asked if the woman should be allowed to kill her fetus, now you're asking if she should be allowed to abort it. I assume, though you don't say, that you still mean just before birth. Just before birth, killing a fetus (if indeed killing is what it is, though since you admit you don't know when life begins you don't know whether the fetus is alive or not and therefore don't know whether it can be killed, since you can't kill what isn't alive) is much different from aborting a fetus. I don't think a true abortion is possible just before birth. How would the abortion be accomplished except by inducing labor, which would produce birth, not an abortion.

So are you talking about killing the fetus (in which case the answer depends upon when life begins) or aborting the fetus (which likely isn't possible)?

But that's not really what you want, which is for people to respond with answers about when life begins despite telling you many times they don't know.

I don't care about when life begins! It's you that seems to think that accademic question matters to the decision.

If we're talking about killing the fetus then it matters a great deal. If, hypothetically, the fetus is not alive until born, then killing it before birth is fine, though "killing" is the wrong term since it was never alive in the first place. But if, hypothetically, the fetus is alive just before birth, then killing it would constitute murder and is criminal.

So when does life begin?

Obviously you think there's an answer and that you know it, so congratulations on your certainty.

How many fucking times does this have to be said. No-one knows when life begins and we never will.

Then all you have is your feelings that you're trying to impose on others.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 11:59 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Tangle, posted 08-08-2018 3:04 AM Percy has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6351
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 265 of 441 (837687)
08-07-2018 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by ringo
08-07-2018 11:46 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
ringo writes:

The timeline you are trying to construct is both phoney and absurd. There is no exact "moment of birth", so talking about tenths of a second is just stupid.

It was jar's timetable. He's now got it down to 1/1000 of a second. I'm happy to take whatever he offers. The point is not about exact timing, it's about what is different about a baby immediately before birth that makes it allowable to kill it?

Of course I'm assuming that Jar believes that it's not ok to kill a baby immediately after birth. If he's not then he's a psychopath but at least he's consistent.

(I shouldn't have to sat this but I will, I'm assuming there are no medical problems to blur the decision.)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 08-07-2018 11:46 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by ringo, posted 08-07-2018 12:34 PM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 266 of 441 (837688)
08-07-2018 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Tangle
08-07-2018 12:14 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
And as I have repeatedly pointed out, that has nothing to do with the topic and yet again, 1/1000 or 1/100 or 1/10 or 1 or 10 or 100 or 1000 seconds after a birth I still feel such decisions need to be made by the mother, possibly the father, and the medical staff involved in that particular instance; my opinion is irrelevant, and should be irrelevant, to the issue.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 12:14 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 12:46 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 267 of 441 (837689)
08-07-2018 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Tangle
08-07-2018 12:25 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

The point is not about exact timing, it's about what is different about a baby immediately before birth that makes it allowable to kill it?


This is not rocket science. Before conception, there is no fetus to terminate. After conception, there are different legalities in different jurisdictions. Just about all jurisdictions set the latest allowable time for termination at birth. In a given jurisdiction, the individuals involved make their decision within the legal restrictions or not.

There are no absolutes, no absolute time when it is "harm" or not, no absolute time when it is permissible or not.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 12:25 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 12:50 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6351
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 268 of 441 (837691)
08-07-2018 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by jar
08-07-2018 12:34 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Jar writes:

And as I have repeatedly pointed out, that has nothing to do with the topic and yet again, 1/1000 or 1/100 or 1/10 or 1 or 10 or 100 or 1000 seconds after a birth I still feel such decisions need to be made by the mother, possibly the father, and the medical staff involved in that particular instance; my opinion is irrelevant, and should be irrelevant, to the issue.

Given your refusal to answer my question I'm going to take an enormous leap and say that you do not think it's right to kill a new born baby. And indeed, that you might even call it murder, like the law does.

So now I'd like to know what it is about a new born that is so different to the same baby 1/1000 of a second earlier such that the mother can kill it with impunity. If you wish to play semantics, I"m happy to use the phrase 'abort it with impunity'.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 12:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 2:44 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6351
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 269 of 441 (837692)
08-07-2018 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by ringo
08-07-2018 12:34 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Ringo writes:

Before conception, there is no fetus to terminate. After conception, there are different legalities in different jurisdictions. Just about all jurisdictions set the latest allowable time for termination at birth. In a given jurisdiction, the individuals involved make their decision within the legal restrictions or not.
There are no absolutes, no absolute time when it is "harm" or not, no absolute time when it is permissible or not.

Do you think you are telling me something I don't know and haven't already said a dozen times?

Aim your remarks at Jar. He thinks there's a difference between a foetus just before birth that allows the mother to kill/abort it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by ringo, posted 08-07-2018 12:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 08-07-2018 1:03 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 270 of 441 (837693)
08-07-2018 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Tangle
08-07-2018 12:50 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

Do you think you are telling me something I don't know and haven't already said a dozen times?


You don't seem to understand the "harm" angle.

Tangle writes:

Aim your remarks at Jar. He thinks there's a difference between a foetus just before birth that allows the mother to kill/abort it.


That's what I'm saying to you: Neither you nor anybody else can just declare that there's no difference. Neither you nor anybody else can claim that there's a particular time when it becomes "wrong".

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 12:50 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-07-2018 1:28 PM ringo has responded
 Message 273 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 2:19 PM ringo has responded

  
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