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Author | Topic: What Science is NOT | |||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: The predictions have to be precise and detailed or they are worthless ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Prophecies are acceptable. If I told you that someone would die of a gunshot wound next week, you wouldn't consider me a prophet. The prophecy is too vague. If I cited names, times and places, it would be a different story. If I told you that I had predicted a murder and that the proof is that I said so in a book I wrote well after the murder, you would not consider me a prophet. These are reasonable conditions.
quote: Acceptable, most certainly.
quote: It gives verification of that particular story. It does not mean that the Bible as a whole is accurate. These are the same conditions applied to any other ancient documents, so don't whine about it. I am aware of some cases where archeology has corraborated some portion of a Bible story. The names of cities are mentioned, the names of rivers, even people. What you fail to realize is that the Isrealites would have had to have been complete idiots to have lived for generations in the region and not get some things right. What is peculiar is that they got so much wrong. You need archeological evidence for the major stories in the Bible-- the captivity in Egypt, the plagues of Egypt, the kingdoms of Solomon and David (as described in the Bible) ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Well, you are on the right track. However, I did some checking. Did you notice in the prophecy that Tyre shall be destroyed and never rebuilt? Well, it was sieged repeatedly and rebuilt. So much for that prophecy, eh? Secondly, Tyre was rich and powerful for a reason. It was located on a prime spot and had been repeatedly seiged for centuries. It is a no-brainer that it was going to be sieged again. Third, the prophecy was a couple of hundred years before the 'fall' Pick any major trade city of the time and and bet on a siege in the next two hundred years. The odds are for it.
Tyreanother discusion of this very topic
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Well, no wonder you didn't notice Funkie's condescending attitude.
quote: Christians tend to take the superficial view of Occam's razor. "Well, God did it is the simplest explanation" Wrong. God did it is no more explanation than "Aliens did it" ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Sorry but no. Tyre had already been seiged taken lost regained for centuries. You are not paying attention.
quote: Note that pretty much anyone alive near Tyre at the time would know this, since many nations had been coming for it for centuries.
quote: Where do you see a bridge in there?
quote: And remember how this very thing had already been happening for centuries?
quote: Yes, Tyre and every other fishing village on the planet.
quote: It isn't luck. He hasn't said anything unusual. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Doubter? I am asking for the same evidence you would request, if for example, someone told you that John Edward revealed some startling information on late night TV. And you've got that wrong. Tyre is still with us. Prophecy failed, unless of course you want to claim that it may be here *now* but that doesn't mean it won't be destroyed and rebuilt many more times.
quote: What? Abandon induction leading to deduction?
quote: It works much better in reverse actually.
quote: Does this involve dismissing the 'doubters'? ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Funkie darling, This is pretty common practise for the time. Captured cities could very well end up destroyed. And dumping the debris into the sea adds a bit of flair but that's about it. You can't make a very convincing case for prophecy with prophecies that predict stuff that stands a good chance of occurring. Tyre was constantly at war, and was eventually going to lose and lose badly. But remember, Tyre wasn't ever supposed to come back. And it did-- repeatedly. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com [This message has been edited by John, 11-13-2002]
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John Inactive Member |
quote: I'll let it slide this time
quote: The issue under discussion is a prophecy made by Ezekial about the destruction of Tyre. So, yes, you are reading it right. Ezekial predicted the destruction of the city. It is all very melodramatic. This, as you point out, hasn't happened. Maybe we should give it a few years.
quote: As far as I can tell this is the same city. What is ironic is that the NT mentions Tyre as a functioning community, thereby rubbing salt in old Ezekial's prophetic wounds. Sorry for the digression - after all, there could be more than one city by that name. However, I find it difficult to believe there was more than one important city/city-state in the same region by the same name. Inquiring minds want to know. [/B][/QUOTE] ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: kissie kissie...
quote: Look at the dates. The earliest copy-- well, not even that but merely fragments-- of Ezekiel is from the Qumram caves circa 100 bc. The events spoken of had already happened. Now if I had a book written today that 'predicted' events that happened two to five hundred years in the past, would anyone take it seriously? Even if the book claimed to not be the original but a copy of a much older work? ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Why are we making this distinction? Ezekiel doesn't, not that I can tell.
quote: This is not the question unless you can demonstrate a good reason for making the distinction. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Got any references? I haven't ran across this bit. I did run across a spiffy picture of the barren rock of modern Tyre.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.kadado.com/media/pics/lebanon/tyre/tyre_from_the_air.jpg ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: How is this for irony, God apologizing to Neb. because Tyre DID NOT fall.
quote: Also notice that Neb did in fact take the mainland city. Since the passage states that Neb got nothing for his efforts we must conclude that the original prophecy concerned the island, thus settled the island vs. mainland issue. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Convenient but technically unassailable, except on the grounds that it makes the position tautological. It is true no matter what, by design. Hardly convincing.
quote: I didn't expect it to destroy oyur faith. I hope it as least shakes your faith in those hundreds of apologists spreading this story on the web and elsewhere. I found hundreds of such sites. I assume you did too, in the course of this discusion. To Funkie: How can one spread false information such as the story of the barren-rock-o-tyre and not know that it is false? It is a currently occupied city. How hard can that be to verify? Now, see what I meant when I said that apologists tend to disregard fact? ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chara:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by John: Convenient but technically unassailable, except on the grounds that it makes the position tautological. It is true no matter what, by design. Hardly convincing. [/b][/quote] I'm sorry John, but I didn't understand this statement. Can you simplify it for me?[/B][/QUOTE] Your statement that the prophecy hasn't been fullfilled yet makes the prophecy tautological. That is, true by definition. 1=1 and 2=2 are tautologies. You can't argue against them, but at the same time they really don't mean much. In other words, the prophecy is insulated from reality. Tyre could grow to be a megapolis occupying the whole planet yet that fact would not damage the prophecy. I could say that eventually I will be crowned King of the United States and simply dismiss criticism with "Wait and see. Eventually it will happen." I doubt anyone would take me seriously, but that is very much the position taken when you say that "well, it just hasn't been fulfilled YET." ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Well, that being the case, sorry. The phrase 'had not been completely fullfulled' implies to me a holdout, but I guess I misunderstood. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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