What Science is NOT

okay so prophesies being fulfilled are not acceptable. how about archeologial evidence. is this sort of evidence submittable. not saying this piece alone is the answer, just some data. if something is described in detail in the bible and then discovered by a scientist with a shovel does that not give some credibility to the bible. i found this little nugget of info today. that would give some credit to the accuracy of the old testament.(HOW A BIBLICAL REFERENCE ENABLED AN ARCHEOLOGIST TO MAKE A SUCCESSFUL PREDICTIONOne Kings 9:15 reads: "Now this is the account of the forced labor which King Solomon levied to build the house of the Lord, his own house, the Millo, the wall of Jerusalem, Hazor, Megiddo, and Gezer." Dr. Yigael Yadkin, an Israeli archeologist, dug up stables at Hazor like those found at Megiddo. Visiting back at the Megiddo site, Yadkin carefully wrote down a description of Solomon's gateway there. Figuring that since Solomon built the gateways at both Megiddo and Hazor, they would be similar, he told a few of his workmen exactly what they would find when unearthing the gate at Hazor. To the workmen's total astonishment, they found exactly what Yadkin said they would find: The gateways of the two cities proved to be identical. ( Revolution Against Evolution – A Revolution of the Love of God )yes this is only 1 piece of data, seems falsifiable, is archeological and historical evidence then allowed in the scientific process------------------
saved by grace[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 11-11-2002][This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 11-11-2002]

I am only trying to get a clear understanding of what is admissable. So specific prophesies, archeological evidence. My post there was just an example. I need to know what sorts of things are acceptable to the scientific process. in order to attempt to compile evidence to support the hypothesis that the bible is the word of God.------------------
saved by grace

thank you kindly.------------------
saved by grace

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Originally posted by mark24:
Chara,

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Think about this for a minute. Zeke's prophecy was so precise he predicted the future use of Tyre ... a place for spreading nets. How can all this be explained? How could Zeke have made such an impressive prediction? Was he just really lucky?

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Why would having a coastal town as being predicted to be a place of fisherman be so great a prophecy? Lucky? Hardly, he would have been very UNLUCKY if no-one used the port for fishing at one point or another. Mundane.

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Mark

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that's only one part of the prophesy Mark . down to detail i think is what chara was getting at. the fact that it was scraped off the earth into the sea is pretty impressive.------------------
saved by grace

Okay you didn't like that prophesy. At least john's starting to like me i noticed. lol.It would appear tyre was not the only city to be prophesied angainst and be destroyed. Memphis-Thebes, Ninevah and Jerusalem are among these. (i'll get more if you want john, just trying to make sure i back myself up a bit) Why were all these cities destroyed? They were destroyed because they worshipped strange gods, and these gods flourished among them. It would seem God's threats are not to be taken lightly.Ezekiel 30
13 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:" 'I will destroy the idols
and put an end to the images in Memphis. [1]
No longer will there be a prince in Egypt,
and I will spread fear throughout the land.
14 I will lay waste Upper Egypt, [2]
set fire to Zoan
and inflict punishment on Thebes. [3]
15 I will pour out my wrath on Pelusium, [4]
the stronghold of Egypt,
and cut off the hordes of Thebes.
16 I will set fire to Egypt;
Pelusium will writhe in agony.
Thebes will be taken by storm;
Memphis will be in constant distress.Memphis;
In 670 b.c. memphis was captured by Esarhaddon (Assyrians), and again in 525 b.c. by Cambyses (Persians), the city of memphis managed to somewhat rebuild itself and restore some of it's greatness. At the time it was said to be the second largest city in egypt, second only to Alexandria the port city (this was around 64 b.c. - 23 A.D). However when egypt was invaded and conquered by the muslims somwhere after 600 A.D the caliph Umar (who reigned from 634-644 A.D)ordered the muslim invaders not to settle in Alexandria. Because of this it set up camp near the old army camp that had defended memphis. Over time this muslim military base became Cairo. As Cairo became more populated those who still dwelt in memphis began to move into Cairo. Memphis at one time was considered a grand city. "While on Arab traveler of the 13th century, Abdul-Latif, declared Memphis to be a 'collection of wonderful works,'" (quote from Eric V. Snow). Today however if you were to go to the site where this "collection of wonderful works," once was you will find no such works. Seems out of it's convieniently close location to the new city Cairo it provided an exellent quarry for construction of the new capital and hardly a stone has been left above ground in Memphis.The idols of Memphis are no more as good ol Zeke predicted (by the way i like that name chara tickled my funnies)Thebes;
Now Thebes was the worship capital of the god Amon as well as the capital of Egypt for hundreds of years. Thebes managed to survive it's destruction by the Babylonians, Persians and Assyrians. (rebuilding each time) Again it was destroyed by Cleopatra's grandfather in a 3 year attack that ended in Thebes being sacked and burned. Once again Thebes rebuilt. However during the reign of Rome (the emperor Agustus 27 b.c.-14 A.D)Cornelius Gallus delivered the finishing blow to this once great city. They were destroyed for taking a stand against the taxation of Rome. After this destruction Thebes did not rebuild. A handful of small villages (9 i've read) rebuilt around there and the impressive ruins stand there to this day. Many of the idols of Thebes still stand.Ezekiel prophesied that God would "cut of the multitude of Thebes" and "Thebes would be breached" So here we see that Thebes has much more violent history and end than Memphis.So fitting with Ezekiels prophesy Thebes is cut off and wiped out only stones remain. Memphis is merely "distressed daily" having only lost it's idols while it's people simply just wandered off.Had Ezekiel made the mistake of switching the two cities he could be called wrong in a snap. If he is only making wild guesses, Wow! however i find it easier to believe he had some help from God.Ezekiel predicts this fall of a very longstanding powerful nation.Ezekiel 29
14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, [1] the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom. 15 It will be the lowliest of kingdoms and will never again exalt itself above the other nations. I will make it so weak that it will never again rule over the nationsNow since then Egypt has taken a beating from just about everyone the British, French, Turks, Arabs, Rome, Greece and Persia. Egypt has become an insugnificant poverty stricken 3rd world country that has also been beaten 4 times in the last 50 or so years by Israel.Ezekiel 30:13
"No longer will there be a prince in Egypt"The princes of Egypt being the pharoh's. The line of the princes of Egypt ended in 341 b.c under Persian rule. So again good ol Zeke gottem right. way to go Zeke.so anyway here's some more prophesy to chew on and discuss------------------
saved by grace

Chara may have promised to say the prophesy has not yet been fulfilled but i didn't. If you read the whole thing the prophesy is not supposed to be completely fulfilled until the end.Ezekiel 26
19 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place [1] in the land of the living. 21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD .""THEN I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit"this is at the end, not yet happened, not YET fulfilled.so i guess not a good example of fulfilled prophesy. YET------------------
saved by grace

Science is not the way to "prove" God exists. You are all very right on that point. How can a being with limited forms of expression describe divinity? Even if you saw God how would you tell other people what he looks like what he's like and so on? You can't. There is no form of expression in humanity to encompass anything more than a vague description of God. Only divinity could possibly describe and explain divinity. Only God can show you who he is. Only God can prove he exists. Maybe try asking God to reveal himself to you. Science is only a little part of God's creation. Therefore science is good. Used against God's will it is wrong. All evil is the pursuit of good in the wrong way. Good gone rotten so to speak. So what is science not? Science is not the way to "prove" God exists. I guess in some cases God may decide to use science to reveal himself to some people. But is NOT the way to prove God. It is like trying to measure the size of the universe with a standard ruler. I would respond to whatever it is that Mark has posted but for some reason my post before this one and Mark's are not showing right now.------------------
saved by grace

I presented a better method of proving God exists. Asking him to show you personally. God has the advantage of not having language barriers, of being able to clearly and efficiently communicate. Even better he created you knows the # of hairs on your head and every thought before you think it. I'm sure he could find a very personal and efficient way to show you he is there. A unique custom designed way of communication for you in particular.
Man through science cannot cover the broad spectrum that is God he encompasses more than we can fathom on our own understanding. So this test is doomed to fail every time. Not for the lack of evidence but the lack of real wisdom and understanding to use it.
So my only other method is to appeal to God himself for the wisdom and understanding needed to know he exists.------------------
saved by grace

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This is a retreat to an untestable position, the prophecy, & any others like it are utterly worthless for testing the validity of the bible.

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Mark

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This is not a retreat, merely a statement that says prophesy is not the way to prove God. I don't subscribe to subjecting God to such a small and limited process. And having it seen said above that the prophesy was wrong i thought i'd correct that statement. It was not wrong and is unfolding as fortold by zeke. To show that it has thus far been accurate does not discredit the prophesy, moreover it would give some credibility to zeke. Again I agree this was a flawed way of "proving" the existance of God. I think Chara is just trying to find a way of communicating with people that think much differently than she does. Trying to come into your way of thinking to speak with you. I give her alot of credit for attempting such a thing, the rest of us do not do this. We stay in our own little boxes and refuse to move.------------------
saved by grace

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If your sole reason for believing in God, the Bible, heaven, Hell, and all of it is "a feeling you have inside that only God can produce", then what does it mean when someone undergoing brain surgery while still awake (local anesthesia) describes euphoric religious feelings when a certain part of their brains are stimulated?

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I have made a comment on this in another thread, on the idea that alot of things that have been labeled mental "functions" may in fact only be mental "reactions" to the spiritual. Of course as i stated on that thread this is based on what i have seen, in friends that have been diagnosed as having a mental problem that i would diagnose as a spiritual ailment. And in the case of a few have come to know the Lord Jesus and no longer suffer from these "mental illnesses". (note i do not accredit ALL mental illness to spiritual but quite alot.) By the way what is a religious feeling i don't know what that is? ------------------
saved by grace

I'm very sorry schraf. i'm an idiot i don't know anything. Who am i to think.