Open Question For Jerry Falwell (and those who agree with him)

I agree Buz. All these things are showing God's judgment against the nation, and perhaps the whole planet as you say. It's only going to get worse.But why do we say anything along these lines? The Old Testament prophets were always telling the people that judgment would come upon them for their idolatries and other sins, but the prophets were not exactly popular. Some of them were killed for their trouble. The prophesied judgements came as foretold.It's the same situation here. The hope is that people might consider the causes of God's wrath and repent, but it doesn't happen that way, they just ridicule the prophets and defend their sins. Even some Christians on this thread ridicule Falwell.

Because He's not blaming the homosexuals, and to the extent Falwell is I believe he's wrong. It's the politics that is to blame. Actually Falwell is pretty clear about that. It's the "activists" who are bringing it about. It is the nation as a whole that is being judged, not individuals. God always gives individuals time to repent and be saved. This is a different thing. God judges nations as covenanted or tribal entities. We're all in this together. A nation is punished for official positions and laws that favor sin. It isn't sinners as such that are being punished, though always that time will come, but those who refuse to acknowledge that there is such a thing as sin and even make laws to promote it. It's not the individual sins of gays, it's legalizing gay marriage as a "right" that will be the national sin if it gets widespread. It's not the individual sins of the sad people who do and get abortions, it's the laws that support the murderous practice as a "right" that are the national sin. I hope I explained this above. God won't stop the nation from such sin, that's our responsibility. If we don't stop it, if we treat it as a good thing and support it, then as a nation He will ultimately punish us.

Unable to access the audio. Wish you'd quoted the main points for us.I gather somebody said something about the symbolic meaning of the twin towers? If I'm wrong, oh well. I certainly registered their symbolism at the time, Trade Center, money, greed, big capitalist bucks. One of the sins of America.But particularly it symbolizes one way God strikes a nation in judgment, in its economy. This is spelled out in God's warnings to Israel in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, how He will judge the nation when it sins, and such things as famine and the outrageous inflation of the price of necessary food are mentioned. How about the price of oil which we desperately need in this mobile culture? Is the skyrocketing price related to 9/11 or not? {abe: to Katrina for sure} And this has affected the cost of delivering groceries across the nation which has affected the cost of the groceries themselves. 9/11 dealt an economic blow to the airlines too, which has threatened the pensions of their employees, some of whom have had to retire early. This is bound to be just the beginnings of much worse to come. They've been able to meet the pensions so far. How long?As Buz mentioned, the destructive power of violent weather in the last few years is another indicator of God's judgment, such as the hurricanes, Katrina in particular, that nearly wiped out a city known for its sin but also in its way an American icon. There could soon come a season when the whole nation is so devastated by an accumulation all at once of all the particular kinds of destruction each locality is prone to, whether flood or fire or crippling levels of snow and ice, or mudslides or tornadoes and hurricanes or whatever, that there will simply be no funds and no human energy to do more than try to cope with one's own local plight.That's just the economic part of the symbolism of the attack on the towers, and it's just a love tap so far. I don't think it would take a whole lot to bring America to her knees economically.Our military was another part of the symbolism in the attack on the Pentagon. Just a nick in it you could say, a hint of what could come. God also says in the Leviticus and Deuteronomy passages about His warnings of judgments, that he will cause enemies to triumph over Israel when they fail to keep His commandments.The white house was an intended target but that one didn't come off as intended. But that one symbolizes the leadership of the land, the governing powers, maybe in a way the nation itself. God tells Israel that they will be governed by incompetents and corrupt leaders as a result of their national sins. I don't want to get into politics, and though I have some problems with Bush's policies I far prefer him to Clinton. I think Clinton was a new low. But this would be a big argument that I'm not up to. I'd say in general that it's been a LONG time since we've had a President we could be wholeheartedly proud of as a nation.The point of all this is just to suggest that there's something to the symbolism of the targets in terms of Biblical warnings of judgment.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

False preachers will be punished. Equating them with all preachers is a sin on your part. Tell that to Jesus who commanded it.

Then you should have no problem with Christ, who simply IS God and didn't need any elevation.

The Messiah is God. Old Testament says so. God our Righteousness. Wonderful Counselor, Almighty God...Missionaries usually just plant themselves and let people come to them.

Well, that just goes to show that you don't know that "God is our salvation" defines the Messiah Himself. And any Jew who called a mere man by the title "God our Righteousness" and "Almighty God" would be apostate. And yes that is what missionaries do.

Couple thousand to be exact. Getting nearer all the time, and Buz is right, the signs are increasing. What we're getting is warnings, love taps. An amazing number of incurable terminal diseases have surfaced in the last half century. That they haven't yet spread beyond local pockets should not be taken as some kind of assurance that they can't. The number of local devastations by weather disasters seems to have been increasing, toward a possible ultimate cluster effect. Numbers of deaths so far don't tell the whole story here. You have to think portent. It ought to be a sign of what could happen when resources are not available because so many localities are devastated at once.

Why? It's not about the endtimes (except in the sense that those times began with the ascension of Christ). What it actually says is that they would not taste death until they saw Jesus come in power (Matthew) or saw the Kingdom of God come (Luke).The Kingdom of God came in power to His followers at Pentecost. All His disciples experienced that. And that was Jesus Himself coming in power to rule the world through the people He indwelt through the Holy Spirit, and after that His Kingdom spread like wildfire. It is still with us, having survived every kind of plot to defeat it.Some even read that promise to refer to the very next chapter in Matthew about the Mount of Transfiguration where Peter and John saw Jesus in His glorified state with Moses and Elijah. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Both Buz and I specifically said that the NUMBER OF DEATHS is not the point and here you are answering the point we said was not the point. Oh well.

quote:

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The grave yards are full of people who 'will have not tasted death' yet.

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Again you have that wrong. The actual words are: The Kingdom of God came, they saw it. They saw "the Son of man coming in His kingdom" both on the Mount of Transfiguration and at Pentecost and thereafter. He rules His Kingdom today. It has been in the world since Pentecost. The terms are not specific. They thought "near" meant nearer than in fact it was, but it was nevertheless near then and it is even nearer now. These statements keep us in a state of preparedness. That's the point. Yes they did think that. They misunderstood how near "near" is. So it simply means it is yet to happen.

Yeah, I know it's odd, but that's how we have to read it. The end times began with the beginning of the church. The term "end" suggests something imminent, but it's been the end times all the last 2000 years, imminent or not, because it's defined by the finished work of Jesus. Nobody knew how long it would last. And as I said, "near" keeps one in a state of preparedness which is the real point, because nobody knows when the end will come.

And it's not as if the natives didn't do their share of the murdering too. Oh but I forget. PC says that was the white man's fault too. And not just the white man, it's the Christians who were the really evil ones. Sigh. It IS amazing, isn't it? It's pretty much representative of the place though, as you will find if you stick around.