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Author
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Topic: What specific evidence would people require to believe in God's existence?
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Belief
I challenge you to name one imperfect system in our greater reality. Replication.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Total Nonsense and Dancin Goal Posts.
Replecation is working. Perfection might not like this system though. I think it might bite us back. Regards DL You asked for a non-perfect system. Replication works because it is Imperfect. Don't think we allow Goal Post Dancin' without it being noted.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 111 of 222 (399561)
05-06-2007 3:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
05-06-2007 12:52 PM
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Re: Gullibility versus Skepticism
People of the Book quite often think differently from people who read books! More sound bite jabberwocky. How do "people of the Book", what ever that means, think differently than "people who read books"? If "people of the Book" means Biblical Christians, then I guess I can see how that is different, since it appears that most of them do not read books, particularly the Bible, and even those that do actually read it seem to have a hard time comprehending what is actually written. Have you read the Bible Phat or are you one of the "people of the Book?"
Other people could, in my opinion, actually have an Angel visit them and they still would attempt to explain it away. How do you tell if it is an Angel?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 108 by Phat, posted 05-06-2007 12:52 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 112 by nator, posted 05-06-2007 10:46 PM | | jar has not replied | | | Message 113 by Phat, posted 05-14-2007 2:25 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 114 of 222 (400483)
05-14-2007 9:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
05-14-2007 2:25 AM
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Re: Touched by an Angel or conned by a carny?
so Jar? Would Christians be better off if they threw all of their dogma away and started over? Not just start over, but rather totally change their methodology. They need to start by realizing a few things:
- they will never know if they are saved so fuhgitaboutit and move on.
- they will never know GOD so fuhgitaboutit and move on.
- if we are created in God's image then God looked like some single celled slime so fuhgitaboutit and move on.
- the universe really is older than 6000 years so fuhgitaboutit and move on.
- there was no literal Adam & Eve so fuhgitaboutit and move on.
- there has never been a world-wide flood so fuhgitaboutit and move on.
It is not a matter of throwing out all dogma and starting over. It is a process of throwing away those things which have been proven false and constantly, unendingly, questioning the rest. It is a process of accepting some things tentatively where there is a high degree of confidence but always being willing to reevaluate should new evidence be found.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 113 by Phat, posted 05-14-2007 2:25 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 117 by Phat, posted 04-02-2003 6:54 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 122 of 222 (413308)
07-30-2007 10:28 AM
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Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
04-02-2003 6:54 PM
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Re: Touched by an Angel or conned by a carny?
Phat says:
I agree with most of this list except for the first two points. * they will never know if they are saved so fuhgitaboutit and move on. * they will never know GOD so fuhgitaboutit and move on. This is not a scientific question nor even remotely necessary for examination by the scientific method. So Phat, how does someone KNOW they are saved? How does someone know it is God?
Are you suggesting that the Greatest Commandment implies that the only way that we can love God with our whole heart, mind, and strength is to show it through behavior toward others and that it is irrelevant whether or not we pray and commune with God Himself? Of course. It is totally irrelevant whether or not we pray and commune with God Herself.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 117 by Phat, posted 04-02-2003 6:54 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 125 of 222 (413533)
07-31-2007 10:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 124 by Percy
07-31-2007 8:58 AM
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on Miracles.
I would need repeatable, observable, testable violations of known physical laws. However, miracles are by definition an act of volition of some supernatural being and so by definition are not repeatable unless that supernatural being decides in this particular case to repeat. I looks then as though true repeatability is unlikely since each miracle requires the consent and cooperation of that being. My websites are a good example. I design websites, but I also am very selective who I will design a website for. Lots of folk ask me to design a site for them, but most either don't interest me, or I don't feel comfortable with the person, and so I turn them down. In other cases I feel a spark of excitement and so I accept the task. When something is, as miracles are, the result of an act of volition of some individual, they are not necessarily repeatable, so expecting such behavior makes little sense. Your second part, that it must violate known physical laws also is pretty irrelevant. The websites I create don't violate know physical laws, nor are they distinguishable from other websites. The final product is pretty much the same. If you look at the result, the only indication that this was an act of volition is that it exists. The result of a miracle may well be indistinguishable from any other event. Perhaps the only real characteristic might be that it is unexpected.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 124 by Percy, posted 07-31-2007 8:58 AM | | Percy has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 128 of 222 (413569)
07-31-2007 2:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 127 by Percy
07-31-2007 1:56 PM
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On miracles
As little sense as it might make to you, what process would you suggest that is superior for judging whether a purported phenomenon has tangible reality? There is no way to test miracles for tangible reality. There may well be an outcome, and outcome that cannot be explained, or it might also be explainable. The point is, one does not prove miracles.
My main point was that most people around the world hold weird beliefs, many of them not even remotely religious. The propensity of people to believe weird things is not persuasive toward changing the approach to assessing what is real and what is not. In fact, it is persuasive in the opposite direction, that one must practice vigilance against all the claims of the various groups of the flim-flam, the paranormal, the pseudoscience and the religious. Okay. I have no problem with any of that.
Please note that I'm speaking informally and am not suggesting that the evidence says there's no such thing as miracles. I'm saying the evidence provides no support for the existence of miracles. Please note that I never claimed that there was evidence in support of miracles.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 127 by Percy, posted 07-31-2007 1:56 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 129 by Percy, posted 07-31-2007 2:39 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Is the existence of life evidence that there MIGHT be a God? Nope.
But could this same doubter CHOOSE to believe that all this intricacy, beauty and so many other things we don't understand in this world might actually be evidence that there is something else at work? Possibly, but certainly it is not very robust evidence of God.
My question only asks, could it be evidence, if a person wanted to choose that position and if it could, doesn't that put US in the position of CHOOSEING faith or doubt? No. Doubt and Faith are unrelated. Even those of us with Faith also have doubt.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 193 of 222 (710174)
11-02-2013 3:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 192 by Faith
11-02-2013 2:39 PM
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Re: Evidence leads to faith
He gave us tons of evidence as recorded in His word, I mean it's chock full of evidence and even in its very existence it is evidence Neat. So you agree the Rigveda and Avesta.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 192 by Faith, posted 11-02-2013 2:39 PM | | Faith has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 194 by Phat, posted 11-02-2013 6:17 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 195 of 222 (710183)
11-02-2013 6:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 194 by Phat
11-02-2013 6:17 PM
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Re: Evidence leads to faith
Well, they are about a thousand years older than any bible and even in their very existence they are evidence.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 194 by Phat, posted 11-02-2013 6:17 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 196 by Phat, posted 11-03-2013 2:21 AM | | jar has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 202 of 222 (710362)
11-04-2013 8:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 201 by Faith
11-04-2013 7:51 PM
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Re: Evidence leads to faith
How is the Biblical evidence more extraordinary than the much older Rig Veda or the also much older Avesta. How is anything in the Bible more significant than the teachings of the Buddha five hundred years before Jesus? You keep claiming evidence yet never seem to actually provide any.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 201 by Faith, posted 11-04-2013 7:51 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 207 by Faith, posted 11-05-2013 3:43 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 211 of 222 (710481)
11-05-2013 4:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 207 by Faith
11-05-2013 3:43 PM
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Re: Evidence leads to faith
HUH? The Bible is not based on an assumption of the reality of God?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 207 by Faith, posted 11-05-2013 3:43 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 212 of 222 (710482)
11-05-2013 4:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
11-05-2013 4:25 PM
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Re: Evidence leads to faith
The Koran contains almost all of the history found in the Bible. The Rig Veda does not give history?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 210 by Faith, posted 11-05-2013 4:25 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Evidence leads to faith
It seems she has never read the Bible either.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 215 by Theodoric, posted 11-05-2013 4:42 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 220 of 222 (710514)
11-06-2013 8:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
11-05-2013 6:17 PM
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Re: Evidence leads to faith
Faith writes: But all this merely distracts from the point. The ONLY religious text that is predominantly history DESIGNED TO DEMONSTRATE THE EXISTENCE AND NATURE OF GOD (which the writings of Homer are not) is the Bible. But most of the history in the Bible like the Garden of Eden, the Flood, the Conquest of Canaan, the Tower of Babel, the Exodus never happened. How is that different than Homer?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 218 by Faith, posted 11-05-2013 6:17 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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