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Author Topic:   What specific evidence would people require to believe in God's existence?
Omnivorous
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Posts: 3992
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 28 of 222 (323779)
06-20-2006 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 12:21 AM


What I would like to know is what specific evidence or at least what types of evidence would people require to believe in the existence of God...
Here's a few possibilities:
1. Evidence of the dramatic and lasting transformation of converts into kinder and gentler people. No sign of that yet.
2. Replicable miracles featured on the nightly news.
3. An end to the slaughter of innocents, divinely ordered and enforced.
4. An apology for the Garden scam.

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 Message 1 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 12:21 AM mjfloresta has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3992
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 49 of 222 (325102)
06-22-2006 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by ReverendDG
06-22-2006 11:16 PM


Re: Definition of God
Rev, you are touching on a subject near and dear to my heart. It is curious to me that neither believers nor atheists are willing to discuss the idea of a less than omnipotent god. This seems strange to me--our world offers no exemplars of omnipotence.
Our history of religion, on the other hand, is replete with superhuman-sized gods. It almost seems as though we've evolved (culturally!) to the point where anything less than omnipotence is not worth the candle, though I see no necessary reason to conclude that a god must be omnipotent.
Maybe a god birthed the universe and then let it unfold because that was the best He/She could do. It seems to me such necessity is the only real reply to questions about the slaughter of the innocents, etc. It only bears bearing if there was no other choice; no other choice does not equate to omnipotence.
For example, the god that made us doesn't have to be the god that made the universe.

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 Message 48 by ReverendDG, posted 06-22-2006 11:16 PM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3992
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 53 of 222 (325275)
06-23-2006 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Larni
06-23-2006 8:15 AM


Re: Definition of God
Larni writes:
Omnivorous writes:
It almost seems as though we've evolved (culturally!) to the point where anything less than omnipotence is not worth the candle,
That would be Power Creep.
With every new edition or source book you get things with greater powers.
That works--I've been thinking of it as oneupsmanship, where cultures raise their conception of the divine to exceed that of their neighbors or new subjects. It is interesting that there are no new gods, and no longer miracles from the old ones. Maybe the delusion is running its course.

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 Message 50 by Larni, posted 06-23-2006 8:15 AM Larni has replied

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3992
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 64 of 222 (325487)
06-23-2006 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by lfen
06-23-2006 7:57 PM


Re: 'soul food'?
ifen writes:
'soul food'?
It's been decades since I read any Gurdjieff but as I recall that was what he taught. Well, he said the moon ate our souls but a few people could develop so they could escape being eaten.
Decades, indeed: that name brings back memories.
I do think there is a tradition of the moon as soul-eater, perhaps shamanic, but I can't recall which: I'll let my back mind chew on it for a while.
I spent several years fascinated by Gurdjieff though not in any organized way.
The question of what is ancient and what made up is always a nagging problem with Gurdjieff. He provides an interesting perspective on what makes a person believe in a god, given that he was able to atrract and hold both the wealthy and the literati in "spiritual" thrall.
He was clearly steeped in some shamanic and mystical traditions but was a bit of a rogue and scoundrel as well. An accomplished hypnotist, he was also a chain smoker yet able to perform astonishing feats of strength and acrobatic skill.
His teachings seemed to draw on the Tibetan shamanic traditions that predated Buddhism (and were persecuted by it), Siberian shamanism, Buddhist thought, and Western occult traditions. I suspect he was also adept at the use of such entheogenic substances as the amanita muscaria mushroom, favorite of the Siberian shamans and possibly the mysterious soma. A read through his work and the contemporaneous books about him constitute a great romp through a time of spiritualism and romance.
For those unfamiliar, Gurdjieff taught among other things that one did not automatically possess a soul but could, with great effort and training, grow one. The enemy of soul-development was the sleep-walking tedium of daily life, the perpetually twilight world of an automaton, not truly conscious, not truly being here.
Consider the long-distance commuter, who becomes so absracted that his usual exit startles him "awake" from a dreamy state of half-formed thoughts, discomforts and desires: Is that a conscious being? According to Gurdjieff, we routinely spend most of our lives in a similar state, not even aware of our own existence.
While one could not wake up all at once, one could increase the frequency and duration of truly conscious intervals. He prescribed various exercises for this, including the notion of "watching" yourself, trying to maintain the state of mind of a close observer of your own actions and thoughts while going about the tedium vitae. This is harder than it sounds and, as he suggested, one does often suddenly realize that an itchy toe and the need to pee have one's full attention, and the resolve to maintain a conscious vigil evaporated.
He called his method the Fourth Way, the way of the clever man rather than the man of the body (yogis and ascetics), the intellect (esoteric Buddhist, Western occult, and other philosophies), and the heart (religious, traditionally conceived). Now we might say The Fourth Way works "outside the box," taking what it wants from other traditions and moving intuitively and lightly, always more focused on being than doing: clearly, there are parallels or borrowings from Zen and the Tao.
My favorite Gurdjieff story is about a group of "monks" who knew how to "wake up" anyone, temporarily putting them into a fully realized state via a sort of hypnosis. As an experiment, they tried their technique on a sheep and were successful.
When Gurdjieff had finished the tale to his satisfaction, a student asked, "What happened, then?"
"Why," Gurdjieff replied, "they ate it, of course."
* * *
The question of why people devote their lives to following someone like Gurdjieff as a spiritual master based, essentially, on his performance, is fascinating: I suspect the answer might be as simple as our social nature and our yearning for an authoritative solution to our own mystery, a reaching for the father/mother who resolves all questions of identity and place in our social and natural worlds.
Of course, most people are sleep-walking zombie sheep. He was right about that.
Edited by Omnivorous, : has->have (blush)

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