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Author Topic:   Would you give up your place in heaven...
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 16 of 113 (452695)
01-31-2008 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


Re-if it meant
Hi cavediver,

cavediver writes:

If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten?

cavediver I could tell you, yes I would be glad to go in their place and never have to worry one minute about the outcome.

First thing is I am not qualifed to be a sin sacrifice. I am a sinner. The sacrifice had to be perfect. Thus God the Son.

Second I have been born again.

John 3:1 (KJV) There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Third When you are born again your spirit is sealed until the day of redemption.

Ephe 4:30 (KJV) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The spirit is what is born again. It is made perfect just like the man when he was first formed from the dust of the ground.

When you are born into this world you can't get unborn.
When you are born into God's family you can't get unborn.

Fourth I have eternal (never ending) life. And I will never perish.

John 10:28 (KJV) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

So what difference would it make what I said I would do.
It can't happen.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 6:25 AM cavediver has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by dogrelata, posted 01-31-2008 5:40 PM ICANT has responded

    
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 2782 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 17 of 113 (452893)
01-31-2008 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ICANT
01-31-2008 2:07 AM


Re: Re-if it meant
ICANT writes:

So what difference would it make what I said I would do.
It can't happen.

As a matter of interest, the difference between the above statement and having no free will would be…?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2008 2:07 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2008 11:57 PM dogrelata has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5512
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 18 of 113 (452895)
01-31-2008 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


Hypotheticals are often too... well, hypothetical
if it meant that ten others destined for everlasting torment could be granted a place in heaven?

Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another.

Part of me wants to echo what Iano already said, and part of me thinks by my own sacrifice, God might honor it. The act of goodwill might be exactly the kind of sacrifice God looks for.

Regardless, if the Scriptures are true, then I can't usurp the decision they've already made. So even supposing I wanted to there is no way for me to know if it would be honored anyhow.


“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 6:25 AM cavediver has not yet responded

    
tesla
Member (Idle past 1527 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 19 of 113 (452903)
01-31-2008 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


trick question
if a person in their hearts would give their eternal life for 10 others who would gain theirs, would find favor with God, and not go to hell.unless you are worshiping these 10 with greater love than your love for God. then you could go to hell.

but as much as the 10 people don't care about God, God would judge them no matter how much you love them. because God is the judge and not man.

if you love the 10 who are hell bound, you will love them, and hope that they, seeing your love for them, might come to awareness of their own hate and despising God, because by love do you learn to love, and those hated, and having hate, hate more.

it is right not to glorify yourselves, because those who will go to the wedding at the end and say : "lord, i am here for my glory" will find themselves in the wrong clothes. and may be cast into hell for it. because in Gods house, honour belongs to God. and your heart is either his temple, or it is not. and only God knows it.

thats my take.

Edited by tesla, : No reason given.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 6:25 AM cavediver has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 20 of 113 (452994)
01-31-2008 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by dogrelata
01-31-2008 5:40 PM


Re: Re-if it meant
Hi dogrelata,

dogrelata writes:

As a matter of interest, the difference between the above statement and having no free will would be…?

dog I had never really thought of it that way but you got something there once I exercised my free will to recieve the free pardon God offered to me and I was born again. I couldn't go to the lake of fire if I wanted too.

Praise the Lord.

Amen


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by dogrelata, posted 01-31-2008 5:40 PM dogrelata has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by dogrelata, posted 02-01-2008 5:47 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 2782 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 21 of 113 (453016)
02-01-2008 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by ICANT
01-31-2008 11:57 PM


Re: Re-if it meant
Woof, woof. It's a dog's life:).
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2008 11:57 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 22 of 113 (453069)
02-01-2008 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


Ten for One
cavediver writes:

If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten?

Yes. I would trust that God knew what He was doing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 6:25 AM cavediver has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 653 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 23 of 113 (453101)
02-01-2008 12:10 PM


Changed my mind?
The prime commandment is "love God with all your heart, soul and mind". Thereafter "love your neighbour as yourself".

The motivation for giving up ones own place in heaven for 10 otherwise damned members of my family would be love for them. "Greater love hath no man for another than that he lay down his life..." for example

But what about my love for God? Is my love for God greater than my love for family?

If faced with a choice and given the greatest commandment would I not have to focus on my love for God and turn away from my love for family?

Is not obeying God's commands always the best thing to do?


Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11540
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 24 of 113 (453117)
02-01-2008 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


quote:
If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten?

Ned Falnders writes:

As far as melon-scratchers go, that's a honey doodle!

I don't think I could do it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 6:25 AM cavediver has not yet responded

  
GodsNails
Junior Member (Idle past 3367 days)
Posts: 4
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 25 of 113 (453816)
02-04-2008 10:30 AM


I would
I believe I would Because I believe everyone een the least of them. Deserve a second chance. And If I could Provide it I would. But in all reality dont you think if such a selfless act was commited, Jesus would send you to heaven any way.
    
GodsNails
Junior Member (Idle past 3367 days)
Posts: 4
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 26 of 113 (453817)
02-04-2008 10:31 AM


I ment to say even in my last posting
Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 657 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 27 of 113 (453822)
02-04-2008 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by GodsNails
02-04-2008 10:31 AM


I ment to say even in my last posting

Helpful hint, since you seem to have double-posted twice now for edits:

You'll notice an "Edit" button just below all of your posts which you can use to make any spelling or wording changes. There is also an area to put in the reason for the edit (ie, "spelling").


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by GodsNails, posted 02-04-2008 10:31 AM GodsNails has not yet responded

  
I-am-created
Junior Member (Idle past 3351 days)
Posts: 12
From: Pittsburgh Pennsylvania
Joined: 02-10-2008


Message 28 of 113 (456427)
02-17-2008 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


Unfortunately, your question is an impossible question to answer, despite the valliant effort by some of the previous posts. The fact that these supposedly selfless, moral, charitable people have heard the Christian message and rejected it makes it impossible for them to enter heaven no matter what I do for them.

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me.'" (emphasis added)

If they rejected Christ and the sacrifice that he made for them, they also rejected God and will NEVER have a place in heaven no matter what sacrifice I would be willing to make.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 6:25 AM cavediver has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by rstrats, posted 02-19-2008 1:48 PM I-am-created has responded

  
rstrats
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 97
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 29 of 113 (456663)
02-19-2008 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by I-am-created
02-17-2008 11:21 PM


I-am-created

re: “Unfortunately, your question is an impossible question to answer, despite the valliant effort by some of the previous posts. The fact that these supposedly selfless, moral, charitable people have heard the Christian message and rejected it makes it impossible for them to enter heaven no matter what I do for them.”

You apparently missed the word “if” in the OP.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by I-am-created, posted 02-17-2008 11:21 PM I-am-created has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by I-am-created, posted 02-19-2008 5:05 PM rstrats has not yet responded

  
I-am-created
Junior Member (Idle past 3351 days)
Posts: 12
From: Pittsburgh Pennsylvania
Joined: 02-10-2008


Message 30 of 113 (456712)
02-19-2008 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by rstrats
02-19-2008 1:48 PM


I didn't miss the 'if'. I was merely stating that the question that was asked was unanswerable. If I was unclear, my point was that God would not give me (or anyone) the capability of sending people into heaven who have already rejected Him. God did not turn them away from heaven, they CHOSE to be separated from him.
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Replies to this message:
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