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Author Topic:   Would you give up your place in heaven...
cavediver
Member (Idle past 996 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 1 of 113 (452359)
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


...if it meant that ten others destined for everlasting torment could be granted a place in heaven?

Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another.

If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten?

[Faith and Belief...]

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


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Message 2 of 113 (452409)
01-30-2008 9:50 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
iano
Member (Idle past 536 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 3 of 113 (452415)
01-30-2008 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


Sounds like a bargain but....
cavediver writes:

...if it meant that ten others destined for everlasting torment could be granted a place in heaven?

No.

My reason for not doing so involves my respecting their hearts desire - just as God will have done in consigning them to Hell. There will be no one in Hell who didn’t choose (in effect) to go there.

Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another.

According to God’s standard, all people are steeped to the neck in the filth of sin – from the most “moral” to the least. If it were possible to set aside the insurmountable issue of their will (above) then I would gladly* stand in the place of any 10 people you care to pick. I’d be as happy with 10 murderers / paedophiles / rapists / evolutionists (:)) as I would with 10 of the most selfless, moral, charitable people you could find.

I’m with God on this one. Spiritually speaking, I see no moral distinction.

*gladly... but on two conditions

a) that I didn’t first get to see what Hell is like close up

b) my decision, taken before I got to see it close up, is final.

It’s one thing to read about it and imagine it through a glass darkly. I suspect I wouldn't be quite so willing were my nose pressed between the bars of the entrance gate.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 7 days)
Posts: 2300
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


(1)
Message 4 of 113 (452416)
01-30-2008 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


If Hell is as nasty as they say, I can't help thinking that you would regret making the offer within a very short space of time.


Mutate and Survive
This message is a reply to:
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Creationista
Inactive Junior Member


Message 5 of 113 (452418)
01-30-2008 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


Giving it up.
Isn't it funny to put up a topic like this when the ones who would do such a thing would not talk about it because it would be shameful to discuss such a thing?

Luke 18:9-14
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Matthew 6:1-6
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 536 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 6 of 113 (452420)
01-30-2008 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Creationista
01-30-2008 10:04 AM


Re: Giving it up.
creationista writes:

That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly

Clearly that passage doesn't apply here. The persons "alms" will result in them being in Hell.

Some reward.

:)


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Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Creationista, posted 01-30-2008 10:12 AM iano has responded

  
Creationista
Inactive Junior Member


Message 7 of 113 (452421)
01-30-2008 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by iano
01-30-2008 10:09 AM


Re: Giving it up.
It is for a man do decide to give charity. What God chooses to do after that is not in question.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by iano, posted 01-30-2008 10:24 AM Creationista has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 536 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 8 of 113 (452425)
01-30-2008 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Creationista
01-30-2008 10:12 AM


Re: Giving it up.
Indeed it is not in question. The verses you offer tell us precisly what will happen. Charity in secret attracts reward. Charity given in public attracts none.

The OP offers simple exchange (were it possible). We're not dealing with all kinds of hypotheticals. Your bible verses do not apply in this case


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Creationista, posted 01-30-2008 10:37 AM iano has responded

  
Creationista
Inactive Junior Member


Message 9 of 113 (452428)
01-30-2008 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by iano
01-30-2008 10:24 AM


Re: Giving it up.
The verses always apply. The answer is, anyone who would say yes wouldn't say yes in this thread.

Any question of seeking reward is off point. Reward should never be the reason you do anything.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by iano, posted 01-30-2008 10:24 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by iano, posted 01-30-2008 11:19 AM Creationista has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 536 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 10 of 113 (452436)
01-30-2008 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Creationista
01-30-2008 10:37 AM


Re: Giving it up.
The verses always apply. The answer is, anyone who would say yes wouldn't say yes in this thread.

If the verses apply they tell us that there is certain to be no reward for this "public charity" of mine. Clearly I wasn't expecting any. What's the problem?

I've said yes in this thread so that point is refuted.

Any question of seeking reward is off point. Reward should never be the reason you do anything.

See above. Reward was not the expectation nor motivation.


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 Message 11 by Creationista, posted 01-30-2008 11:29 AM iano has responded

  
Creationista
Inactive Junior Member


Message 11 of 113 (452438)
01-30-2008 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by iano
01-30-2008 11:19 AM


Re: Giving it up.
"If the verses apply they tell us that there is certain to be no reward for this "public charity" of mine. Clearly I wasn't expecting any. What's the problem?"

No. The verse says "Give your charity in secret." It doesn't say "Only give charity in secret if you want a reward." The reward is, frankly, an afterthought.

"I've said yes in this thread so that point is refuted."

Actually, you said no, and then dithered, and then changed your mind. Then you said 'Only if I won't really understand how bad Hell will be until it's too late.' That's like giving away someone else's money.


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iano
Member (Idle past 536 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 12 of 113 (452440)
01-30-2008 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Creationista
01-30-2008 11:29 AM


Re: Giving it up.
Actually, you said no, and then dithered, and then changed your mind. Then you said 'Only if I won't really understand how bad Hell will be until it's too late.' That's like giving away someone else's money.

Oop's. If that's how you read what I wrote then I'll forego attempting to clarify things for you..


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GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 13 of 113 (452446)
01-30-2008 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


Wrong picture of Heaven
Obviously you are just asking a hypothetical question but I suggest that it gives the wrong impression of what heaven is. The following is a quote from a talk by the Bishop of Durham.

NT Wright writes:

On the other hand, religion in the western world has been less and less about the renewal of creation and more and more about escaping from this wicked world and going to a better place, called ‘heaven’ – going there ultimately when we die, but going there by anticipation in the present through prayer and meditation. This essentially other-worldly hope and spirituality has fought its corner robustly against the materialism which has insisted that the only things that exist are things you can touch and see and money you can put in your pocket. But if you turn Christian faith into simply the hope for pie in the sky when you die, and an escapist spirituality in the present, you turn your back on the theme which makes sense of the whole Bible, which bursts upon us in everything that Jesus the Messiah did and said, which is highlighted particularly by his resurrection from the dead. A religion that forgets about new creation may feel some sympathy for the battered and bedraggled figure in the ditch, but its message to him will always be that though we can help him a bit, ultimately it doesn’t matter because the main thing is to escape this wicked world altogether. And that represents a tragic diminishing and distortion of what Christian faith is all about.

The God in whom we believe is the creator of the world, and he will one day put this world to rights. That solid belief is the bedrock of all Christian faith. God is not going to abolish the universe of space, time and matter; he is going to renew it, to restore it, to fill it with new joy and purpose and delight, to take from it all that has corrupted it. ‘The wilderness and the dry land shall be glad; the desert shall rejoice and blossom, and rejoice with joy and singing; the desert shall become a pool, and the thirsty ground springs of water.’ The last book of the Bible ends, not with the company of the saved being taken up into heaven, but with the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven to earth, resulting in God’s new creation, new heavens and new earth, in which everything that has been true, lovely, and of good report will be vindicated, enhanced, set free from all pain and sorrow. God himself, it says, will wipe away all tears from all eyes. One of the great difficulties in preaching the gospel in our days is that everyone assumes that the name of the game is, ultimately, to ‘go to heaven when you die’, as though that were the last act in the drama. The hymn we’re about to sing ends like that, because that’s how most people have thought. But that’s wrong! Heaven is important, but it’s not the end of the world; God will make new heavens and new earth, and give us new bodies to live and work and take delight in his new creation. And the ‘good news’ of the Christian gospel is that this new world, this new creation, has already begun: it began when Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead on Easter morning, having faced and beaten the double enemy, sin and death, that has corrupted and defaced God’s lovely creation.

The Road to New Creation


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
This message is a reply to:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3932
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 14 of 113 (452492)
01-30-2008 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


Seems to me that this would be the greatest sacrifice any one could make; over and above that of Jesus. He died but I bet he went to heaven (nepotism seems to be rife everywhere).

So passing up eternity puts you on more points than Jesus to my mind and if Jesus gets a pass, so sould poor old imperfect me.

But; I owed one of my fiends £1.26 once and bartered my soul for the debt. Technically it's still hers so I wonder if I could even get into heaven anyway?


This message is a reply to:
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humoshi
Junior Member (Idle past 2602 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 15 of 113 (452499)
01-30-2008 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


quote:
If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten?


Well, most christians believe that without the threat of eternal bliss or eternal torture there is no motivation for one to be moral, i.e., be moral and get rewarded. Now your asking them to be moral and get tortured. That's a toughy for them.

As an atheist, my morality is purer, more genuine, and not tied up in rewards or punishments like a christian's morality, so obviously I'd sacrifice myself for the greater good.

On second thought, i'd let them burn.


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