Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 109 (8803 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-24-2017 6:48 PM
349 online now:
GDR, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), Modulous (AdminModulous) (3 members, 346 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 822,958 Year: 27,564/21,208 Month: 1,477/1,714 Week: 320/365 Day: 47/42 Hour: 0/5

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12345
6
78Next
Author Topic:   Would you give up your place in heaven...
ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 76 of 113 (734712)
08-01-2014 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
08-01-2014 12:51 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Phat writes:

It would be evil, however, if the ten, upon meeting Jesus...still rejected Him.


Why?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 08-01-2014 12:51 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 08-02-2014 4:02 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 77 of 113 (734776)
08-02-2014 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
08-01-2014 12:54 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Because I gave my life in eternity ...with Jesus...for them to go instead, and they were too proud and independent to allow the Creator of all seen and unseen to welcome them into His world.

They wouldn't belong in Heaven. One cant simply have a spot all their own in such a place. In fact, the whole sin of rejecting God boils down to selfishness. Wanting to be allowed to live in your own little corner...in a house built by someone else and eternity bought and paid for by someone else---and still be stubborn enough not to acknowledge the gift!! Meanwhile, down in hell, I would probably be eternally miserable unless I could strike a deal allowing me to c ease to exist rather than go through what is described as eternal torment...(perhaps lament?? )


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 08-01-2014 12:54 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 08-02-2014 11:48 AM Phat has responded
 Message 83 by ramoss, posted 08-04-2014 12:47 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 78 of 113 (734798)
08-02-2014 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
08-02-2014 4:02 AM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Phat writes:

Because I gave my life in eternity ...with Jesus...for them to go instead, and they were too proud and independent to allow the Creator of all seen and unseen to welcome them into His world.


Or maybe they don't want to accept a reward they don't deserve. Maybe they don't want to see you punished for what they did. Maybe the "bad guys" are actually nobler than you and your god.

Phat writes:

They wouldn't belong in Heaven. One cant simply have a spot all their own in such a place.


What a horrible place.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 08-02-2014 4:02 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 08-02-2014 12:40 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 79 of 113 (734807)
08-02-2014 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
08-02-2014 11:48 AM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Dont you understand? There is no such thing as "your own". No man is an island nor does any man really own one. We are all renters in this universe, whether we believe the landlord exists or not.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 08-02-2014 11:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 08-02-2014 1:21 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 80 of 113 (734818)
08-02-2014 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
08-02-2014 12:40 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Phat writes:

No man is an island nor does any man really own one. We are all renters in this universe, whether we believe the landlord exists or not.


You're misusing the quote.
quote:
No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
-- John Donne

It's not about an alien overlord. It's about taking care of each other.

"Any man's death diminishes me." If anybody goes to hell, I'm being punished too.

If God offers you ten souls for yours, the proper thing to do is negotiate, like Abraham did for the Sodomites. Ask for ten billion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 08-02-2014 12:40 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 08-04-2014 1:51 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 81 of 113 (734990)
08-04-2014 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
08-02-2014 1:21 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Gods logic is the exact opposite, however. Look at Shepherd who leaves a herd of 99 sheep in order to rescue 1 solitary sheep.

God might leave a herd of 7 billion in order to find you. What can you do for Him to be worth 7 billion souls?


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 08-02-2014 1:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 08-04-2014 11:05 AM Phat has responded
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 11:43 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29628
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 82 of 113 (734999)
08-04-2014 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
08-04-2014 1:51 AM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
That's not logic just stupidity, dereliction of duty and malfeasance.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 08-04-2014 1:51 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 08-04-2014 8:58 PM jar has responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3049
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 83 of 113 (735008)
08-04-2014 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
08-02-2014 4:02 AM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
What if you found out that heaven didn't INCLUDE Jesus?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 08-02-2014 4:02 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 08-04-2014 8:53 PM ramoss has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 84 of 113 (735030)
08-04-2014 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ramoss
08-04-2014 12:47 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Obviously then my belief would be wrong. The idea that Heaven wouldn't include Jesus, however, brings up an entire alternative understanding of what Heaven was all about. Perhaps it would thus be like a giant rehab center for broken people, since every bit of what we know about the character of Jesus shows Him to be above reproach.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ramoss, posted 08-04-2014 12:47 PM ramoss has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 85 of 113 (735031)
08-04-2014 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
08-04-2014 11:05 AM


All I am saying is that we can never do enough for God. I never said we shouldnt try. I never said we should simply shirk our duties to humanity since we are imperfect.

All I am saying is that God cares as much about one soul as He does multiple souls.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 08-04-2014 11:05 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 08-04-2014 9:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29628
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 86 of 113 (735032)
08-04-2014 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Phat
08-04-2014 8:58 PM


All I am saying is that we can never do enough for God. I never said we shouldnt try. I never said we should simply shirk our duties to humanity since we are imperfect.

All I am saying is that God cares as much about one soul as He does multiple souls.

You can't really do anything for God so it is silly to try. But nothing in your post is relevant to anything in this thread.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 08-04-2014 8:58 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 87 of 113 (735067)
08-05-2014 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
08-04-2014 1:51 AM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Phat writes:

Look at Shepherd who leaves a herd of 99 sheep in order to rescue 1 solitary sheep


I think the implication of the story is that the shepherd leaves the 99 in a safe place while he searches for the lost one. That's the opposite of your logic.

Phat writes:

What can you do for Him to be worth 7 billion souls?


The question in the OP asks if you would, not if you "could".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 08-04-2014 1:51 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 08-05-2014 12:53 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 88 of 113 (735085)
08-05-2014 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
08-05-2014 11:43 AM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
The analogy is obvious...Jesus sacrificed His life for the benefit of all of us---thus would we do the same for many others...but critics assert that it was not as much of a sacrifice for the Son of God seing as He already was eternally in Heaven and would never be booted out so that we all could get in...though other commentators mention that even a moment away from communion is a huge sacrifice that we humans would never understand. I would never make a sacrifice simply out of altruistic love for others---quite honestly I dont have that much love naturally for the rest of humanity....and I wouldnt sacrifice for ten otherwise good people who had no interest in meeting the host of the venue. I guess im just too selfish.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 11:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 1:02 PM Phat has responded
 Message 92 by subbie, posted 08-05-2014 3:21 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 89 of 113 (735088)
08-05-2014 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
08-05-2014 12:53 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Phat writes:

...Jesus sacrificed His life for the benefit of all of us---


If that was true, there would be no topic. Jesus sacrifiiced His life -temporarily - only for those of us who accept Him. The topic's question is: Would you sacrifice your life permanently for others?

Phat writes:

I would never make a sacrifice simply out of altruistic love for others---quite honestly I dont have that much love naturally for the rest of humanity........and I wouldnt sacrifice for ten otherwise good people who had no interest in meeting the host of the venue.


If you don't have the love that He TOLD you to have, why would He want you?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 08-05-2014 12:53 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 08-05-2014 1:20 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 90 of 113 (735090)
08-05-2014 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
08-05-2014 1:02 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
The whole point---which you likely disagree with since you are a works oriented type of guy---is that we need Jesus (or Gods) impartation to even be able to have the necessary love. Its not a matter of willing oneself to do the impossible and achieve the necessary altruistic effort. Anyone who is honest would likely admit that they dont have what it takes, though some would argue that we can do it ourselves. I maintain that we cannot.

As for why He would want us...(or nah) my point is that He died (and lived) for broken imperfect people...not for do-gooders who are willing and able to lay their lives down...macho style....like a fearless commando taking a bullet to protect ten.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 1:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 1:31 PM Phat has responded

  
Prev12345
6
78Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017