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Author Topic:   Would you give up your place in heaven...
iano
Member (Idle past 568 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 46 of 113 (474433)
07-08-2008 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by rueh
07-08-2008 12:43 PM


quote:
I believe your supposition is way off here. The other people around them would be where the need is sourced from. They may suppose that there is no higher power but not that there is no one else other than themselves that may need assistance. The act would then be not one of self righteousness but of selflessness. Since they are acting for the benefit of others for the others good alone.

They are responding to a need that arises in themselves. If it didn't (and it doesn't in the person next to them who passes the situation unconcernedly by) then the good act wouldn't follow.

It't their conscience that is pricked by the external-to-them situation. Their compassion that cannot turn away. Something in them lies at the root.

And if no God beyond them then the buck stops with them: at the trigger within themselves that fires off the "good" act. That's what I mean by self-righteous. The righteousness derives from the need to satisfy something within the self.

I can't see much to applaud to be honest (if looking at things through unbelieving lens). What formed them: society, upbringing, genetics? What credit does a person take for such things?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by rueh, posted 07-08-2008 12:43 PM rueh has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by rueh, posted 07-08-2008 1:17 PM iano has responded

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 1046 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 47 of 113 (474437)
07-08-2008 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by iano
07-08-2008 12:54 PM


quote:
I can't see much to applaud to be honest (if looking at things through unbelieving lens). What formed them: society, upbringing, genetics? What credit does a person take for such things?

These are the exact same circumstances that formed your thoughts and emotions. You may attribute them to god but your actions to any given situation is the same pre-programmed response as anyone else. You are a product of your enviroment. If you were raised with high morals than you will most likely continue to express those morals in your actions. If you were raised in a, lets say less than moral enviroment, than you will display these same attributes. Until some external trigger comes along to make you rethink your own ethics.

I do not believe that any christian who has the full "knowledge" of what hell is and all that it includes, would make the choice to knowingly seperate themselves from god. In doing so they are rejecting god and by god's standards must be condemend to hell. The only way one could say yes to that question is that, by doing so they are secretly hoping for a reward for demonstrating their own selflessness. However this act would not be a pure selfless act but merely chest beating ("look how good I am god.That I care for others like jesus did")so it would account for not and they would be sent to hell.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by iano, posted 07-08-2008 12:54 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by iano, posted 07-08-2008 2:56 PM rueh has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 568 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 48 of 113 (474447)
07-08-2008 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by rueh
07-08-2008 1:17 PM


quote:
These are the exact same circumstances that formed your thoughts and emotions. You may attribute them to god but your actions to any given situation is the same pre-programmed response as anyone else. You are a product of your enviroment.

If actually inhabited by the Holy Spirit of God then I am a product of something other than you assert. And the mechanics of that scenario would be quite different from the mechanics which the unbeliever cannot avoid. But this isn't about me in the first instance, it's about these good deeds - which are actually deeds arising out of that which is a product of it's environment (according to the unbeliever). The self being a product of it's environment, a complicated machine, the righteousness is self-righteousness. Or product-of-it's-environment-righteousness if you prefer.

Little cause to applaud it in any case.

quote:
If you were raised with high morals than you will most likely continue to express those morals in your actions. If you were raised in a, lets say less than moral enviroment, than you will display these same attributes. Until some external trigger comes along to make you rethink your own ethics.

I wouldn't argue against that. So much for applauding the selfless person over the selfish person then..

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by ikabod, posted 07-09-2008 3:39 AM iano has responded

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 1878 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 49 of 113 (474515)
07-09-2008 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by iano
07-08-2008 2:56 PM


Iano it think you are getting very close to stating a case for the non-exsistance of good and evil .

to review you say ..

The self being a product of it's environment, a complicated machine, the righteousness is self-righteousness. Or product-of-it's-environment-righteousness if you prefer.

there removing the selfs abiltiy to choose its path .. if it is constrained by it enviroment it becomes blamless for its acts ...good or bad ...

If one has to follow the message and its rules then one passes the justification for any law , or action driven by that law , into the hands of the giver of the message ... good becomes following someone elses path , because they tell you that is the correct way ...and to be a belive requires you not to question ...
Thus any good or evil you perform is controlled by another .

I personally think we have the ability to reason ... to look at something and to determine good and bad .. we can then choose how to act ..within our limited abilities ...and to accept the blame when we get it wrong ..no get outs ..i come from a nasty enviromenyt .. of i did belive the correct way .... it is that old idea that free will is not really free if someone stands in the wings holding up the correct answer for you...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by iano, posted 07-08-2008 2:56 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by iano, posted 07-09-2008 6:40 AM ikabod has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 568 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 50 of 113 (474530)
07-09-2008 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by ikabod
07-09-2008 3:39 AM


quote:
Iano it think you are getting very close to stating a case for the non-exsistance of good and evil.

I am drawing the conclusions I think the unbeliever must come to. His "good" acts or "evil" acts are acts that arise out of a "need" within himself. He scratches whichever itch happens to arise. Seeing as those itches arise only naturalistically (in the eyes of an unbeliever) one wonders as to why the applause. Applaud a persons good acts because they were brought up with a moral framework that would ensure those acts occurred? Or happen to have a genetic makeup that makes such acts more likely?

Paradoxically, you yourself seem to consider absolute good and evil to exist. Certainly your indignation as to Gods potential treatment of what you consider a good person indicates as much. The definer of absolute good in this case being, of course, you.

-

quote:
If one has to follow the message and its rules then one passes the justification for any law, or action driven by that law , into the hands of the giver of the message

I don't have to follow Gods rules. I want to and attempt to and very often fail to - but then again, I'm a child of his and my relationship to the law of God is other than an unbelievers relationship to it.

You (as an unbeliever, I presume) don't have to follow Gods laws either, if you don't want to. The fact you break them every day is proof positive that you don't have to.

Your point isn't clear to me otherwise. Could you reword it?

-

quote:
... good becomes following someone elses path , because they tell you that is the correct way ...and to be a beliver requires you not to question ...

We all have to follow some path or other. We both chose which one. In my case the path I attempt to follow is defined by God. In your case it's an assembly of bits drawn from various sources and influences. How each path is made up is not the main point, that we chose the one we follow, is.

-

quote:
I personally think we have the ability to reason ... to look at something and to determine good and bad

Determine good or bad against which measure? If it's your own measure, and your own measure can alter to suit your book then all you're saying is that; what you reason to be right is right and vice versa.

The good samaritan and the paedophile can operate in precisely the same way.

-

quote:
.. we can then choose how to act ..within our limited abilities ...and to accept the blame when we get it wrong ..no get outs

Seeing as it is down to the (unbelieving) individual to decide whether they have done right or wrong and the meausure is the measure they themselves choose to apply, forgive me if I'm not all that impressed.

The person who considers themselves to have done wrong makes a choice to consider so. The person who considers themselves to have done no wrong makes the choice to consider so. The same act can be viewed by the one as evil and the other as not evil - simply by applying their respective choices.

But was it evil?

-

quote:
..i come from a nasty environment .. of i did belive the correct way .... it is that old idea that free will is not really free if someone stands in the wings holding up the correct answer for you...

One thing that Gods standard says to me is that I, unlike you, don't need to fumble around in the dark wondering what is right and wrong anymore.

I, unlike you, haven't the luxury of a) considering something I've done then b) deciding to reconfigure my moral framework so that what I previously considered wrong is now not wrong. I'm not saying you do this, but I'm saying you can do this if you like. Indeed, there is nothing stopping you doing this given that right and wrong can be whatever you chose them to be, whenever you chose them to be.

Knowing the correct answer doesn't mean I always do the right thing. I'm a sinner and it is the tendency of believing sinners to know what is right yet do the wrong thing. How much harder to know for sure you've done the wrong thing, than know you can always reconfigure your morals so that you are always right - whatever any other moral relativist might say?

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ikabod, posted 07-09-2008 3:39 AM ikabod has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by RickJB, posted 07-09-2008 7:02 AM iano has responded

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 2375 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 51 of 113 (474533)
07-09-2008 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by iano
07-09-2008 6:40 AM


Iano writes:

How much harder to know for sure you've done the wrong thing, than know you can always reconfigure your morals so that you are always right - whatever any other moral relativist might say?

Believers can just as easily reconfigure and reinterpret God's standpoint to suit their own ends, thus absolving them from any wrongdoing.

Ever notice how God is on everyone's side?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by iano, posted 07-09-2008 6:40 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 07-09-2008 7:15 AM RickJB has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 568 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 52 of 113 (474534)
07-09-2008 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by RickJB
07-09-2008 7:02 AM


quote:
Believers can just as easily reconfigure and reinterpret God's standpoint to suit their own ends, thus absolving them from any wrongdoing.

I was talking about myself. I know what stealing is and I know it's wrong. And I wouldn't be able to reinterpret Gods word on the matter to suit my own book - even when I steal.

He won't let me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by RickJB, posted 07-09-2008 7:02 AM RickJB has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ikabod, posted 07-09-2008 8:35 AM iano has not yet responded
 Message 55 by rueh, posted 07-09-2008 12:16 PM iano has responded

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 1878 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 53 of 113 (474538)
07-09-2008 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by iano
07-09-2008 7:15 AM


I know what stealing is and I know it's wrong. And I wouldn't be able to reinterpret Gods word on the matter to suit my own book - even when I steal.

He won't let me.

now to me it is you who seems to have absolutes .. they may be given to you by another but you hold fast to them ...

is it wrong to steal a gun from some one who you know is vert likely to use the said gun to harm others ...

is it wrong to steal food from a rich household to feed a person dieing of starvation

are there true absolutes of good and evil ...i dont know ... i hope not because that would be a limit we how good we could be .. i hope there is a infinate depth of good , then we can keep striving for more and better levels of goodness....

this is one of the issue of some other giving us the answer .. it sets a final mark ...in such a case what do you do once you have ticked all the boxes ..

my

indignation as to Gods potential treatment of what you consider a good person indicates
only a seeming lack of understanding on his part .. the lack of thinking outside the box .. of reasoning why such a Ten selfless people have not earnt a trip to hell ( what ever that is ).. if we as mere humans can see the reason why all should be treathed the same ... why does a supreme being not ?.. can we not require of such a being higher standards than we can achive ... even if only in intent .

rewording

If one has to follow the message and its rules then one passes the justification for any law, or action driven by that law , into the hands of the giver of the message

if you allow another to write the set of rules you choose to follow ,with out question , with out the choice to re evaluate those rules in differing condistion, with out the ability to debate those rules , then you hand over the responciblity for your action to another ...you say i must be lead .. i can not reason for myself ...mine is not to think , merely carry out given instructions... and then where is any value in what you do .. Mr Robot....

Determine good or bad against which measure? If it's your own measure, and your own measure can alter to suit your book then all you're saying is that; what you reason to be right is right and vice versa.

The good samaritan and the paedophile can operate in precisely the same way.

i may reason , but i do not live in isolation , i have to justifie my actions both to myself and the whole world ...

if is reason stealing is ok in all cases i will soon find the fault in my reasoning ....

just as the samaritans and the paedophiles actions will effect how the rest of humanity react to them ... its called feed back ...

One thing that Gods standard says to me is that I, unlike you, don't need to fumble around in the dark wondering what is right and wrong anymore.

and there you have your absolutes ...

and this is the dangers , doubt is the greatest gift we have , question everything , do not fall back on dogma , treat every situation as new , answers are a end to reason ...

do not accept it when some one say you dont understand the Mind of the message ...demand to see the working out .. and the again ask Why...

as to you presuming me to be a unbelive ... show me what it is and i will tell you if i belive in it ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 07-09-2008 7:15 AM iano has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 54 of 113 (474553)
07-09-2008 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by ikabod
07-09-2008 8:35 AM


ikabod writes:

can we not require of such a being higher standards than we can achieve ... even if only in intent .

Which brings up a point. Do people earn their way to this heaven based on their behavior or merit or based on Gods mercy?

The ten worthy people may well be worthy by human standards. In order to give up our own spot we must have either earned it or have thought that we were recipients of some Divine Grace of some sort....so....

giving up ones spot is a symbolic gesture like standing on the bus or light rail so that others may sit.


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 Message 53 by ikabod, posted 07-09-2008 8:35 AM ikabod has not yet responded

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rueh
Member (Idle past 1046 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 55 of 113 (474576)
07-09-2008 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by iano
07-09-2008 7:15 AM


quote:
I was talking about myself. I know what stealing is and I know it's wrong. And I wouldn't be able to reinterpret Gods word on the matter to suit my own book - even when I steal.

He won't let me.



But you could use it for the purpose of killing? Many have used their religion to justify any action they want. These are just examples from the OT, I won't even get started on Islam. There is no moral high ground due to religion. Because anyone can use their interpretation against yours. Look at what occured in Ireland for years.
quote:
Exodus 32:27
Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' "

From the mouth of Moses. Religion justifying murder
quote:
Esther 9:5
The Jews struck down all their enemies with the sword, killing and destroying them, and they did what they pleased to those who hated them

Are you saying the jews were not justified for killing in the name of their god?
quote:
Acts 7:24
He saw one of them being mistreated by an Egyptian, so he went to his defense and avenged him by killing the Egyptian

About Moses again, man this guy loved to kill people.
Sorry but I just don't believe that your individual belief justifies your actions or makes you any more moral than anyone else.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 07-09-2008 7:15 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by iano, posted 07-14-2008 6:09 AM rueh has responded

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 1046 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 56 of 113 (474578)
07-09-2008 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
07-09-2008 10:00 AM


quote:
giving up ones spot is a symbolic gesture like standing on the bus or light rail so that others may sit.
From a christian perspective it would also be symbolic of actively rejecting god for the betterment of man. Which would earn you ticket on the express bus to hell. IMO I would like to believe that god is more intelligent and less petty than this and could see the significance of such an act. I think that whatever created the universe has in their ability to reckognize all of creation and not just those who believe they are better than others.
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davidfernandis
Junior Member (Idle past 3121 days)
Posts: 1
From: new york, India
Joined: 07-14-2008


Message 57 of 113 (475208)
07-14-2008 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by humoshi
01-30-2008 3:14 PM


morality
It is true that in the last morality is rewarded. Be moral and get rewards.
__________________________________
David
Addiction Recovery Hawaii
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by humoshi, posted 01-30-2008 3:14 PM humoshi has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 568 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 58 of 113 (475213)
07-14-2008 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by rueh
07-09-2008 12:16 PM


rueh writes:

But you could use it for the purpose of killing? Many have used their religion to justify any action they want. These are just examples from the OT

Your conflating Religion and Scripture - in my view. Of course you might say that there is no difference - in which case our disagreement would revolve around difference in definitions.

Take this:

quote:
Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' "

Moses is reporting what God said - in which case it is not Religion who is instructing the killing but God. Or at least Gods mouthpiece: Moses. Ditto the other biblical examples.

-

quote:
Are you saying the jews were not justified for killing in the name of their god?

If instructed to do so by God then they are, of course, justified. Justified by him, the highest court in the land ... and beyond.

-

Sorry but I just don't believe that your individual belief justifies your actions or makes you any more moral than anyone else.

Clearly God instructing the killing of others (even if the his instruction is delivered to the people through Moses) would not be an unrighteous thing - seeing as God can only act righteously by definition. Moses obviously wouldn't be acting unrighteously in carrying out Gods instructions - it's in the disobeying of Gods instructions that a man acts unrighteously afterall

Similarily, any act of mine which is seen by God as righteous is righteous irrespective of what you believe about it. As it happens my many unrighteous acts are forgiven and forgotten. And the many 'righteous' acts of yours don't amount to a hill of beans if you come to stand before a holy God in your sin.

It might not sound fair. But it is fair - it's the way God has it.

This is what I believe.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by rueh, posted 07-09-2008 12:16 PM rueh has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by rueh, posted 07-14-2008 8:19 AM iano has responded

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 1046 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 59 of 113 (475224)
07-14-2008 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by iano
07-14-2008 6:09 AM


Iano I am really enjoying our discussion however I fear we have strayed off topic. maybe we ought to start a new thread on the authority of righteousness? Any reply to the second part of my message in regards to hoping that God would not be uncallous and could see a self sacrifice as a means to liberate other condemed souls and your own?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by iano, posted 07-14-2008 6:09 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by iano, posted 07-14-2008 10:44 AM rueh has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 568 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 60 of 113 (475246)
07-14-2008 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by rueh
07-14-2008 8:19 AM


Iano I am really enjoying our discussion however I fear we have strayed off topic. maybe we ought to start a new thread on the authority of righteousness?

I'm not quite sure what the "authority of righteousness" means but if you'd like to, then by all means..

Any reply to the second part of my message in regards to hoping that God would not be uncallous and could see a self sacrifice as a means to liberate other condemed souls and your own?

There was no second part of your message that I could see.

That said (and assuming you meant "God would not be callous"), I don't suppose that there is any way open to God for the liberation of souls - other than the self-sacrifce supplied by God himself. If it were possible for my (or anothers self-sacrifice) to liberate souls then I'm sure God would have been pleased not to pour out his wrath on own beloved son.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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