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Author Topic:   Would you give up your place in heaven...
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 3088 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 61 of 113 (475265)
07-14-2008 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
01-30-2008 10:00 AM


Re: Sounds like a bargain but....
iano writes:

No.
My reason for not doing so involves my respecting their hearts desire - just as God will have done in consigning them to Hell. There will be no one in Hell who didn’t choose (in effect) to go there.

What??? If hell is real, it is gonna be filled with people who like me simply don't believe in hell for different reasons like lack of evidence (for starters). It cannot be said that these people are there because they chose to be there.

iano writes:

According to God’s standard, all people are steeped to the neck in the filth of sin – from the most “moral” to the least.

if this is true, so what? Its his responsability anyways for creating us like this. He supposedly can see the future and still proceeded with his plans. All I'm saying is; Is it really our fault or are we caught in some madman's matrix with everything to lose. I can only wonder

Edited by Itachi Uchiha, : htlm code


With my eyes there's nothing you can do that I can't see through.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by iano, posted 01-30-2008 10:00 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by iano, posted 07-14-2008 1:21 PM Itachi Uchiha has responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 656 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 62 of 113 (475269)
07-14-2008 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Itachi Uchiha
07-14-2008 12:45 PM


Re: Sounds like a bargain but....
iano writes:

My reason for not doing so involves my respecting their hearts desire - just as God will have done in consigning them to Hell. There will be no one in Hell who didn’t choose (in effect) to go there.

Itachi writes:

What??? If hell is real, it is gonna be filled with people who like me simply don't believe in hell for different reasons like lack of evidence (for starters). It cannot be said that these people are there because they chose to be there.

I said choose (in effect). You don't have to chose based on evidence in order to chose (in effect) to go to Hell. One biblical way it is put is that people will perish "because they refused to love the truth".

Suppose for a moment that God is actively trying to persuade you - not of his existance - but of something for which you have tangible evidence, then it is possible for you to act in such a way as to refuse to be persuaded by that evidence. By ducking and weaving and preventing the evidence building up to to extent of an iron-clad case you will have chosen not to be persuaded.

iano writes:

According to God’s standard, all people are steeped to the neck in the filth of sin – from the most “moral” to the least.

Itachi writes:

if this is true, so what? It's his resposability anyways for creating us like this. He supposedly can see the future and still proceeded with his plans. All I'm saying is; Is it really our fault or are we caught in some madman's matrix with everything to lose. I can only wonder

The responsibility for man being in the state he is in, is mans, not God's. God is responsible for creating a being with the potential for being responsible for the state he got and gets himself into.

Whatever about the rights and wrongs of Adam sin-infection transmitted down, the problem remains: we're sinners before a holy God who is wrath against sin. Ducking that major issue in order to concentrate on the legalitic minutae is the kind of thinking that will only get you into Hell.

Should you persist with it to the bitter end

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 07-14-2008 12:45 PM Itachi Uchiha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 07-14-2008 6:05 PM iano has responded

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 3088 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 63 of 113 (475294)
07-14-2008 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by iano
07-14-2008 1:21 PM


Re: Sounds like a bargain but....
iano writes:

Suppose for a moment that God is actively trying to persuade you - not of his existance - but of something for which you have tangible evidence, then it is possible for you to act in such a way as to refuse to be persuaded by that evidence. By ducking and weaving and preventing the evidence building up to to extent of an iron-clad case you will have chosen not to be persuaded.

This does not make any sense to me for the following:

1) I don't have to persuaded for anything to which tangible evidence is available. No divine being has to go through the trouble of convincing me that water is real for example.

2) I don't find in me the ability to refuse to be persuaded over things that are real. As much as I hate it, I can't deny the existence of oatmeal.

iano writes:

The responsibility for man being in the state he is in, is mans, not God's. God is responsible for creating a being with the potential for being responsible for the state he got and gets himself into.

Before this can be taken any further, I need to know if you believe in predestination in the same sense that Paul puts it the book of Ephesians(if im not mistaken) when he says that we were chosen before the foundation of the world.

Edited by Itachi Uchiha, : fixing html code


Mangekyo Sharingan. Youre trapped in my genjutsu now!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by iano, posted 07-14-2008 1:21 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by iano, posted 07-15-2008 5:30 AM Itachi Uchiha has responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 656 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 64 of 113 (475320)
07-15-2008 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Itachi Uchiha
07-14-2008 6:05 PM


Re: Sounds like a bargain but....
Itachi writes:

1) I don't have to persuaded for anything to which tangible evidence is available. No divine being has to go through the trouble of convincing me that water is real for example.

Tangible evidence of water would be warm liquid running from a tap over your hand. But on opening your eyes you could find out that it is in fact warm oil ands not warm water. Surgically put, you cease to need to persuaded of something only when the level of evidence (tangible or otherwise) passes a certain threshold. Until then, you occupy a position whereby you are in need of further evidence - in order that you be persuaded.

You can refuse to open your eyes to the truth of oil and persist in the notion that that warm liquid is water. You would be doing what the Bible says those who will perish do: they refuse to love (or to put it another way; suppress arrival at) the truth.

The Bible says that you are blind and cannot see that you are a sinner - even though there is tangible evidence that you are a sinner: you do all of the things that sinners do. Of course, that case isn't compelling to you, just as a persons with eyes clamped shut eyes isn't compelled to admit it's water and not oil

-

I don't find in me the ability to refuse to be persuaded over things that are real. As much as I hate it, I can't deny the existence of oatmeal.

Thoughts are real, are they not? They are not tangible in the sense that oatmeal is though. So much for empiricism as a full and final means to arrive at what's true.

-

Before this can be taken any further, I need to know if you believe in predestination in the same sense that Paul puts it the book of Ephesians(if im not mistaken) when he says that we were chosen before the foundation of the world.

Different folk have different takes on Paul means. He speaks elsewhere (in Romans 8) about predestining being something God does to people that he foreknows. If God foreknows you then he predestines you. If he predestines you he calls you. If called, you'll be justfied and glorified. Foreknowing is first in the queue - with all else happening automatically once that first domino is tipped over.

"Before the creation of the world" there was no time (let's suppose). In which case God chose me in the eternal realm. But the eternal realm also exists after the world, and time, has been wrapped up. We might thus consider this world and this time as a realm contained within a 'bubble' around which exists the greater timeless eternal realm.

All of which means he chose me in the same realm that exist after the world will come to an end. Meaning he can chose me on the basis of my response to him in this world. And thus predestine me to be transferred to his kingdom before the world began

To sum up: my own view is that everyone gets to chose (in effect) their eternal destination. God knows their choices eternally, that is: before they've made it - because he is simultaneously present after they've made it. And he predestines those who (effectively) choose for him to be subjected to the process of salvation that transfers them from the kingdom of darkeness into the kingdom of light. Foreknown (because they are known afterwards), predestined to be called, called as a result, justified (made righteous in Gods eyes), glorified.

Q.E.D.

:)

Edited by iano, : a bit of a re-write


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 07-14-2008 6:05 PM Itachi Uchiha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 07-16-2008 7:34 PM iano has responded

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 3088 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 65 of 113 (475573)
07-16-2008 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by iano
07-15-2008 5:30 AM


Re: Sounds like a bargain but....
This is probably starting to get off topic and becoming a never ending discussion but, lets continue till the admins close it.

iano writes:

You can refuse to open your eyes to the truth of oil and persist in the notion that that warm liquid is water. You would be doing what the Bible says those who will perish do: they refuse to love (or to put it another way; suppress arrival at) the truth.

In theory and in paper, this sounds like a good analogy. Now, can you give me a good practical, everyday example of situations when we feel it's water but it is in fact oil? This analogy can be used against you. What if it is you the one who is because of your faith(binding you), feeling oil when the true liquid is water?

iano writes:

Thoughts are real, are they not? They are not tangible in the sense that oatmeal is though. So much for empiricism as a full and final means to arrive at what's true.

Thoughts are real when they are looked at for what they are; chemical reactions in your brain. If you imagine a chair for example, the thought that provides your brain with an image of the chair through the different processes in your brain is real, not the chair you are imagining. A line must be drawn between what is real and what is imaginary.

iano writes:

Different folk have different takes on Paul means. He speaks elsewhere (in Romans 8) about predestining being something God does to people that he foreknows. If God foreknows you then he predestines you. If he predestines you he calls you. If called, you'll be justfied and glorified. Foreknowing is first in the queue - with all else happening automatically once that first domino is tipped over.

So... Can i take this as a yes, that you believe in predestination?

iano writes:

"Before the creation of the world" there was no time (let's suppose). In which case God chose me in the eternal realm. But the eternal realm also exists after the world, and time, has been wrapped up. We might thus consider this world and this time as a realm contained within a 'bubble' around which exists the greater timeless eternal realm.

All of which means he chose me in the same realm that exist after the world will come to an end. Meaning he can chose me on the basis of my response to him in this world. And thus predestine me to be transferred to his kingdom before the world began

To sum up: my own view is that everyone gets to chose (in effect) their eternal destination. God knows their choices eternally, that is: before they've made it - because he is simultaneously present after they've made it. And he predestines those who (effectively) choose for him to be subjected to the process of salvation that transfers them from the kingdom of darkeness into the kingdom of light. Foreknown (because they are known afterwards), predestined to be called, called as a result, justified (made righteous in Gods eyes), glorified.

Hmm. I respect your opinion/faith but I find this to be speculation. And speculation, cannot be debated. Theres no evidence that can possibly take you to this kind of theory. You can pull out the "bible says it so it must be true" card but that will only make me conclude that the author was speculating as well. You''ll need to start making a case for the existence of a soul and that it is inmortal or eternal and still you'll have all your work ahead of you to come up with something like the opinion you stated here.

Edited by Itachi Uchiha, : grammar


With my eyes there's nothing you can do that I can't see through.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by iano, posted 07-15-2008 5:30 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by iano, posted 07-17-2008 5:13 AM Itachi Uchiha has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 656 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 66 of 113 (475629)
07-17-2008 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Itachi Uchiha
07-16-2008 7:34 PM


Re: Sounds like a bargain but....
Itachi writes:

In theory and in paper, this sounds like a good analogy. Now, can you give me a good practical, everyday example of situations when we feel it's water but it is in fact oil?

Sure.

Many people wouldn't see any problem with homosexual acts. The basis for their supposing so would be that they suppose homosexuality to be as naturally occurring as hetrosexuality. In a water-sense they might well be right: sexual orientation could be a genetic affair. In an oil-sense they would be wrong: fallen humanity is something that gets expressed (through sinful acts) in all manner of means - for everyone sins. Homosexual acts - due to homosexual orientation is but one manifestation of falleness.

-

This analogy can be used against you. What if it is you the one who is because of your faith (blinding you), feeling oil when the true liquid is water?

Of course. I know God exists but that doesn't mean he does. It's a bit like this point of yours ...

-

Thoughts are real when they are looked at for what they are; chemical reactions in your brain. If you imagine a chair for example, the thought that provides your brain with an image of the chair through the different processes in your brain is real, not the chair you are imagining. A line must be drawn between what is real and what is imaginary.

...the chair you are looking at exists as chemical reactions in your brain just as thoughts do. You know the difference between the chair and the thought of the chair. But that doesn't mean the real chair is real.

Even though you know it is. If your able to presume that what you reckon you know to be the case is the case then so can I.

-

So... Can i take this as a yes, that you believe in predestination?

Absolutely. Predestined based on what we chose afterwards..

-

Hmm. I respect your opinion/faith but I find this to be speculation. And speculation, cannot be debated. Theres no evidence that can possibly take you to this kind of theory. You can pull out the "bible says it so it must be true" card but that will only make me conclude that the author was speculating as well.

My response on predestination wasn't intended to operate along lines of arguing for Gods existance or anything that might flow from that. It arose out of my responding to this query of yours below:

quote:
if this is true, so what? It's his responsability anyways for creating us like this. He supposedly can see the future and still proceeded with his plans. All I'm saying is; Is it really our fault or are we caught in some madman's matrix with everything to lose. I can only wonder

You were supposing, for the purposes of making the points above, that God exists. "If it is true ..."

You've now switched to supposing he doesn't exist in order to make a quite different point. My responses, based on your supposing he does exist can't be expected to fit the switch you've made.

You've run off the discussion rails. It's easily done.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 07-16-2008 7:34 PM Itachi Uchiha has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 67 of 113 (475856)
07-19-2008 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


...if it meant that ten others destined for everlasting torment could be granted a place in heaven?
Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another.

If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten?

So far GDR's reply is my favorite one on this question beause the biblical salvation is about being made a new creation much more so than being transported as is to a happy place.

But with misconceptions excused for a moment I'll give a crack at an answer.

1.) The work of sacrificing for the eternal destiny of human beings was the unique work of Jesus Christ. He alone was qualified to effect that matter. Eternal redemption through atoning death was His office alone. It can never be made anyone else's.

This is not to say that Christian disciples are not called to sacrifice or serve or lay down their comfort on behalf of the blessing of others. But those sacrifices are not in the realm of "You suffer eternal perdition so that this one does not." They could never be for eternal redemption to replace the finished work of Jesus at Calvary. That's not a Christian's calling. It could never be a disciple's service to replace the Savior Jesus in that office. So the very question is nonsensical in that regard.

2.) I want to be where Jesus is.

If Jesus is there in hell I would prefer to be there with Him rather than in heaven without Him.

What would drive my decision is "Where would my Lord Jesus be?"

3.) Any charitableness which is not Christ Himself living out from me is of no use to God's purposes.

So this concept of excercising some natural or religious charitableness apart from the divine nature imparted into a person via union with Christ can only go to serve a manmade purpose and not the will of God.

I don't want to give myself to anything which is not the will of God no matter how apparently "charitable" it appears in the eyes of man.

For example, in Matthew's Gospel when Peter suggested that Jesus should pity Himself and avoid the crucifixion to come, he was rebuked by Jesus with "Get behind me Satan. You mind in on the things of man and not the things of God."

Some forms of "charitableness" can just be expressions of the Satanic spirit in opposition to the will of God.

Not interested.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 6:25 AM cavediver has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by rueh, posted 07-19-2008 5:08 PM jaywill has responded

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 1134 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 68 of 113 (475903)
07-19-2008 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by jaywill
07-19-2008 7:39 AM


quote:
2.) I want to be where Jesus is.

If Jesus is there in hell I would prefer to be there with Him rather than in heaven without Him.

What would drive my decision is "Where would my Lord Jesus be?"



Wouldn't this be tantamount to placing others before God? In this example you actively reject God in order to follow Jesus. Which correct me if I am wrong but is a violation of the ten commandments. I know that many believe in the trinity which would than lead to the argument that since Jesus is one part of God than you can not follow Jesus and reject God. However, I myself do not believe in the trinity. I believe that the trinity is an add on in order to establish Jesus' divinity, I believe in one God. So actively rejecting God in favor of Jesus is a clear indication that you place more emphasis on the messenger than on the message.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by jaywill, posted 07-19-2008 7:39 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by jaywill, posted 07-21-2008 8:11 AM rueh has not yet responded

  
brendatucker
Member (Idle past 2575 days)
Posts: 168
From: West Hills, CA
Joined: 05-22-2008


Message 69 of 113 (476005)
07-20-2008 12:57 PM


Heaven on Earth
Scientific researchers have often put their own lives at risk in order to provide clues or findings that will allow our human population to live more in line with fact. It is a dedication to truth that prevents them from listening to superstition.

Likewise, our military populations have at times risked/lost their own lives for the benefits of one or more others. It is a constant reminder to self-sacrifice as a rescue mission.

However, we are reminded that the world we live in is not our true home and these self-sacrifices can be rewarded in some way by God or nature. We always expect to continue.

With proving religion, we often reject other people's religions in order to branch out into new types of testing where we cannot be sure that we are on, in fact, the right road to success. Still every result takes us one step closer to elminating the possibilities hoping that we will eventually reach the right solution.

People have left their churches or refused to obey edicts in their searches for proof and in this way they have risked their guarantee of heaven. I think as a group, we all admire them for what they did even if there were no beneficial results. At least they tried to act upon knowledge rather than allow faith to bury them.

Those who risk their way into heaven by varying the experimental design in an unrecommended manner could produce results that allow earth to become more like heaven and in this way they are more interested in adventure than in security. Those intent upon reaching heaven (a girasas world) do not perhaps know that that girasas world can also be brought here. Either way is a test of courage. To bring a higher kingdom into form life on earth suggests danger and possibly death. To enter into a higher way of life suggests naivety and a followers mentality rather than careful planning and presentation.

I often dream of what it would be like to be in the next (higher; girasas) kingdom, but do not think that I could work their equipment. I imagine myself in a highly technical place where I am fascinated by but unable to use the machines there, and eventually they all break down and I am not even a little bit closer to experiencing their type of life than I was previously outside of their world. I think being there with girasas would be tres difficile and whoever enters heaven thinking they are in for a joy ride may find the task to be too much for them. It is so comforting to have others around you who are able to attempt the same task that you are attempting, preferably loved ones. If you don't have the right investigative team, you may as well wait until you can put that team together and enjoy them. At least if you wait long enough the work of bringing heaven to earth will be done for you.


    
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 70 of 113 (476109)
07-21-2008 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by rueh
07-19-2008 5:08 PM


Wouldn't this be tantamount to placing others before God?

My God is the man Jesus Christ according to the teaching of the New Testament.

"And the Word was with God. And the Word was God.... And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us." (See John 1:1,14)

Jesus is God become a man.

In this example you actively reject God in order to follow Jesus.

Christ is God and man mingled together. Christ is the universal union of divinity and humanity.

So the answer is to follow Christ is to follow God. And to follow God is to follow Christ.


Which correct me if I am wrong but is a violation of the ten commandments.

I am trying to correct you.

The law of Moses has a chief function to expose man and reveal to man the need for forgiveness, redemption, reconciliation and transformation.

Fallen man from Adam thinks he only has a minor problem between himself and God which he (man) can easily fix. God knows better and says in essence "You think you are OK? Here, keep this law."

The ten commandments main purpose was utterly expose the fallen nature and pave the way for the redemptive act of the Son of God to reconcile us to God.


I know that many believe in the trinity which would than lead to the argument that since Jesus is one part of God than you can not follow Jesus and reject God.

The New Testament says that all of the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Christ bodily. That is not one third of the fulness. Nor is that 33.3333% of the fulness. All the fulness is embodied in the Son of God.

"For in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell." (Col. 1:19)

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9)

The mutual coinherence means that where one of the Triune God is the others are also. They mutually live within One Another. This is a great mystery which we are called to believe who receive Christ.

We are called to receive Christ. To receive Him is to receive the Holy Spirit. And to receive Him as the Holy Spirit is to have the Father and the Son come to us and make an abode within us:

"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him.: (John 14;23)

The Divine "We" here means the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit brings into the believe the Father and the Son as the Divine "We". In this way Father - Son - Holy Spirit come to make an abode with the lover of Christ.

Chapter 14 is all about the Spirit of Reality, the Holy Spirit. He is called "Another Comforter". And to receive this Holy Spirit is to receive the Triune God.

Remember always 1 Cor. 15:45 - "the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit."

Christ in resurrection brought His human person into the eternal Spirit and became in a form to impart and dispense the life of the God - man Jesus into people. He became a life giving Spirit.

"Now the Lord is the Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17)


However, I myself do not believe in the trinity. I believe that the trinity is an add on in order to establish Jesus' divinity, I believe in one God.

Jesus established His divinity Himself. His disciples like John, Peter, Paul, etc. only FOLLOWED Him to also establish His divinity.

The [word] Trinity is of course not in the Bible. The idea of having such a theological word arose from the need to DEFEND the Person of Christ from various wrong ideas. For example, in reaction to Arius who wanted to deny the divinity of Christ, the need for such a word as Trinity arose.

The FACT of Christ's divinity as well as His humanity was always there in the Bible. The expression Trinity only arose when the fact was attacked by various teachers in the latter church age.

Incidently, by saying that Jesus is God we do not mean that Jesus is not also a man. Some people feel that it must be one or the other. The incarnation means that both are true. Christ is the mingling of God and man.

God desires the mingling of God and men and women. Christ is the Head of the operation to unite and mingle God and humanity. That He would be the Firstborn Son among many brothers. See Romans 8:28,29.


So actively rejecting God in favor of Jesus is a clear indication that you place more emphasis on the messenger than on the message.

You have asked for correction if you are wrong. I have tried to correct you. It is up to you to receive the correction or hold to your wrong ideas.

Christ is God. The Son of God is God - "Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Araham came into being I AM. So they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple." (John 858,59)

The Jews there understood what Jesus was saying. He was saying that He was the I AM that I AM - God Himself who also appeared to Moses in the burning bush. They therefore attempted to stone Him for blasphemy - being a man and saying that He was the Great I AM - Jehovah God Himself.

They got it. It is time for you to get it also.

The apostles got it. When John wrote "And the Word was God" he invented nothing. JOhn was only faithfully FOLLOWING Jesus to teach in other words the exact same thing that Jesus taught.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : I meant to write that the WORD Trinity was not in the Bible. Bad Typo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by rueh, posted 07-19-2008 5:08 PM rueh has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4600
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 71 of 113 (476358)
07-23-2008 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


I don't want to say, "yes" because it would only be like what Peter said when he said he would die with Christ.

I HOPE that I would give up my place, ofcourse. The whole message is that Christ gave up his life, therefore the aim is to be like Him. Those hwo lay it down regain it, therefore Christ would not suffer me to perish in this scenario.

Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another.

I don't know if you're trying to make the Gospel look unreasonable. What I do know is that works don't count according to the gospel, and if we show God our best, it qualifies as filthy rags to him. Like showing him tissue you have just wiped on your bum and saying; "Look what I done God".

Understanding of the bible in a deeper way will help here.

I can tell you right now it would be very easy to find more righteouss people than me, but TO OUR GOD, it's irrelevent - because, don't you see, - it's not our opinion that counts, it's God's opinion that counts, and logically - disagreeing with Him won't make him go away.

As for truly righteouss people - 100% holy, the scripture says; " The healed don't need a physician, the sick need a physician@.

I can only speak for myself, and I can tell you that having sinned and being a sinner in life, I need a physician. If you are truly righteouss, you can be confident on judgement day - but first we must understand that only God is good.

How can anyone have never done one wrong thing? And if God is without blemish - how can anything live in His sight if it is contaminated?

Unless we repent, we can't please God, according to the Gospel, as this begins his work in us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 6:25 AM cavediver has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4600
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 72 of 113 (476360)
07-23-2008 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
07-07-2008 1:23 PM


Re: Theoretical Hypotheticals
Good point. Firstly - what is heaven?

Those who have Christ already have the Kingdom because it is within. How can someone desire to live in heaven if it is inherently foreign to them? Yet if they are perfectly righteouss - it couldn't be foreign to them, and they would know Christ.

This hypothetic can only be answered biblically, assuming biblical truth under Christian theology.

It is therefore hard to give an answer an atheist would understand in the way we understand it as believers.

Oh - an, hi phat!! :)

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 07-07-2008 1:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 07-23-2008 9:35 AM mike the wiz has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9501
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 73 of 113 (476362)
07-23-2008 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by mike the wiz
07-23-2008 9:07 AM


Re: Theoretical Hypotheticals
Cavediver writes:

...if it meant that ten others destined for everlasting torment could be granted a place in heaven?

Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another.

If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten?


whereupon I replied....
Phat writes:

Thats quite a choice! I suppose that God would be testing me...but I don't see how my going to "Hell" would be a good example.

Theoretically and hypothetically, the answer is an obvious altruistic choice. Yes, any good person would take a bullet for the rescue of ten.

Practically, however, this question makes no sense. If these ten went to Heaven, would they suddenly have the opportunity to "meet" God? If so, could they still hypothetically reject Him and could they still stay and attend the party?

Then Wiz jumps into the fray.....

Theistic Mike writes:

Good point. Firstly - what is heaven?

Those who have Christ already have the Kingdom because it is within. How can someone desire to live in heaven if it is inherently foreign to them? Yet if they are perfectly righteous - it couldn't be foreign to them, and they would know Christ.

This hypothetic can only be answered biblically, assuming biblical truth under Christian theology.

It is therefore hard to give an answer an atheist would understand in the way we understand it as believers.

Hello, Wiz! (BTW :) )

I suppose that once I took the punishment meant for these ten altruistic infidels, whatever happened between them and God was bought and paid for by my sacrifice. It would be interesting, however, to see the resulting interaction between them and a God they didn't believe in. ;)


"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2008 9:07 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by mike the wiz, posted 07-29-2008 7:27 AM Phat has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4600
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 74 of 113 (476966)
07-29-2008 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
07-23-2008 9:35 AM


Re: Theoretical Hypotheticals
Phatzy writes:

It would be interesting, however, to see the resulting interaction between them and a God they didn't believe in.;)

It would indeed.

I think the problem is a contradiction in terms. The O.P. speaks of righteousness, but righteousness is defined by the bible, as that's where it comes from - and the bible says that no, not one is righteouss - all fall short of the glory of God.

For example, a very religious descent Budhist might be extremely moral - more so than you and I, --BUT-- the bible says that if they don't believe in Christ then they have sin - for God counts faith as righteousness.

So there is a contradiction in terms, because we can't as believers give up what God means by righteouss, for the sake of what humans consider righteouss.

(Sorry I take so long to respond, I only post at the library now).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 07-23-2008 9:35 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 08-01-2014 12:51 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9501
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 75 of 113 (734710)
08-01-2014 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by mike the wiz
07-29-2008 7:27 AM


Ten Who Rejected Christ
Wiz writes:

there is a contradiction in terms, because we can't as believers give up what God means by righteouss, for the sake of what humans consider righteouss.

Good point.

cavediver writes:

Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another.

If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten?

If God gave me the choice...I would know that God was supportive of my choice and thus would go. It would be evil, however, if the ten, upon meeting Jesus...still rejected Him. In fact, if that happened, I would trust God to bring me back. The ten, apparently, chose their destiny. The real question is if they would be allowed to stay in Heaven after rejecting Jesus.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by mike the wiz, posted 07-29-2008 7:27 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 08-01-2014 12:54 PM Phat has responded

  
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