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Author Topic:   What is the oldest religious text?
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 538 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 31 of 56 (239003)
08-31-2005 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by hoaryhead
08-31-2005 12:24 PM


Re: A Bible Timeline
The flood that caused the petrified forest in California.

You think a global Flood caused the petrified forest?!

This is a decent description of what caused the petrification of the trees. It's written more towards a wide audience, so even kids can understand, but it serves the purpose.

It was a geologic and chemical process that took a longer period of time than you believe the universe to have existed! Certainly not a Flood that never happened!


Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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jar
Member
Posts: 28434
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 32 of 56 (239023)
08-31-2005 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by hoaryhead
08-31-2005 12:24 PM


Re: A Bible Timeline
As usual hoaryhead you post is simply incorrect.

First, the Petrified Forest is NOT in California, it's in Northern Arizona and dates from around 225 Million Years ago. Is that the flood you're talking about?

Now how about trying to move back towards the topic?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Theus
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 56 (239102)
08-31-2005 4:05 PM


And inffered texts?
The oldest elements of the Torah, Nevim, and Ketuvim occur with the Dead Sea Scrolls, which range in age from the 3rd century BCE to 68 CE. Other than that, we have the Lenningrad Codex, which was written around 1010 CE. However, this differes from some of the Dead Sea Scrolls (many of which have nothing to do with "accepted" holy works), as it is masoretic. Hebrew has an alphabet of only consonants, as such many Rabbinical scholars in the medival period were concerned that the language would be either lost or changed irrevocably. They added vowel signs to the consanant alphabet... which makes it a fairly different read. AlsoancientHebrewoftenhasallwordswrittentogetherinastring, so it sometimes lends to interpetation. You'd be amazed at how much of an invention the vowel was, let alone spaces between words and punctuation.

But I digress. The point is, any existence of these texts and their interpretations is infered past the earliest date of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 300 BCE-ish. They obviously existed, and were probably formulated with the later kings of Israel. But there are no set dates (a stern eye to hoaryhead).

It is probably best to be conservative and apply the oldest dates for initial writings for roughly 750-700 BCE, just to be on the safe side, though this does not include oral tradition. I would argue that the Rig Vedas are older even when conservatively dated, and Egyptian Hieroglyphics older still. But on the subject of Aborigional art in Australia, I heard it suggested that some cave paintings were 50,000 years old. This is odd as the oldest confirmed existence for anyone in Australia is roughly 46,000 BCE... which coincidentally coincides with the obliteration of Australia's marsupial megafauna. But hands down, Australia has the oldest contextual religious(?) representation... but don't assume that foragers don't change. Religions interpretations by aborigional people probably have changed radically, perhaps more so than Judaisim or Hinduism, don't fall into the trap that all foraging peoples are alike. I would give the medal to either Chauvet cave in France (35,000 BCE) or Australia at 50,000, 46,000 BCE... whatever their dates may be.

Interesting that the margin between Australia and Chauvet is far greater than the range of proposed existence of all the other major religious texts of Egypt, Israel, and India put together. Perhaps we are missing the point entirely, and it is the fact that they are written down that is important... that the authors recognized and feared cultural change and sought to limit it by codifying beliefs.

Au revoir,
Theus


Veri Omni Veritas
  
hoaryhead 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 34 of 56 (239117)
08-31-2005 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Brian
08-31-2005 12:18 PM


400 Years and 80 Years
For: Brian;

1) "Now, add the 480 years of 1 Kings 6.1 on to 1006 [BC] and you get 1488 BC for the Exodus."

2) I love it when you Atheists talk so foolishly, as though you were wiser than your Maker, and as though your words could overrule the word of God.

The reason is this: "Sometimes you touch on a subject that I have not investigated, and I feel duty-bound to prove you are wrong, in simple terms."

3) The Papal Dark Ages had men bound to deductive logic, and there was no scientific progress (in Europe only) for 500 years.
Historians had described these people as "incapable of original thought."
But the renaissance restored original thought (in music first), and scientists turned to inductive logic, leading to constantly increasing knowledge.
But Brian has ignored the deliverance from the Dark Ages, and has returned to deductive logic - only.

4) "The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, and dwelt in Haran, and said to him, 'Get out of your country ... and come to a land that I will show you.' ... But God spoke in this way ... that they would bring them into bondage and oppress them 400 years ... At this time Moses was born ... 'Do you want to kill me as you did the Egyptian yesterday?' Then at this saying, Moses fled .. And when 40 years had passed an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush ... He brought them out, after he had shown wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness 40 years" - Acts 7.2-36.

5) Paul also summarized a few main points of the history of Israel; which were:
strangers in land of Egypt - Acts 13.17.
40 years [plus 1 - Num 1.1 (1); 14.34 (40)] in wilderness - 13.18.
destroyed 7 nations - 13.19.
judges about 450 years - 13.20.
Saul was king - 13.21.
David was king - 13.22.
Jesus was seed of David - 13.23. Total years from Egypt to Solomon (in this summary) = 497 years plus 80 years of reigns of Saul and David; now totaling 567 years.

6) Now when we have the story told in such simple terms, besides the original account that was being summarized by these two men, then it is ridiculous for Brian to deny all of this evidence because he does not understand another verse.

7) Another opposer of God also denied the 450 years of Judges. But Paul was dogmatic, saying, "450 years until Samuel the prophet" (13.20).
So then, in the book of Judges we have 410 years of Judges, but it is stated that Israel did not always listen to the judges (2.17); and Eli judged 40 years (1Sam 4.18), "until Samuel."
410 Years + 40 Years = 450 Years of Judges until Samuel.

8) That is too much evidence to be dismissed lightly. But here is what the verse in question
(1 Kings 6.1) means. [This was a supernatural operation. Because I am a faithful witness to the True and Living God, and to His Son, Iesous Anointed; He has promised to send me Wisdom. See: James 1.4-8.]

"He will be (HYHY) in eighty years and in 400 years [Gen 15.13], to coming; sons of Israel; from land of Egypt, in the fourth year, in month of Ziv; this the second month to Solomon 'kinging' over Israel, and he built the temple to 'He Is' (Yahweh)" - 1Ki 6.1.

God was "in" the 80 years [Judg 3.30], and in the 400 years [2035 - 1635 BC], and Solomon built the temple to "He Is" [God is only in the present tense].

That is why the Devil wants your mind on "the long ago" and on "the far off."

hoaryhead


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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 35 of 56 (239123)
08-31-2005 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
08-31-2005 1:53 PM


Re: A Bible Timeline
First, the Petrified Forest is NOT in California, it's in Northern Arizona

There is a petrified forest at Calistoga, California as well as the famous one in Petrified Forest National Park. Apparently there's several others dotted around the US as well.

However as you say it's not on topic - and hoaryhead is talking rubbish as well :)


I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then
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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 538 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 36 of 56 (239157)
08-31-2005 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by hoaryhead
08-31-2005 4:29 PM


Re: 400 Years and 80 Years
hoaryhead, you're posting gibberish that is totally irrelevant to this discussion. Either post something about the age of a Biblical text being older than any other religious text, or conceed and be quiet. I for one will ignore you until you actually post something on-topic and backed up with evidence, and not filled with ad hominem attacks.

If you don't do this soon, I'd put money on the Admins giving you a little vacation from posting.


Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
This message is a reply to:
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hoaryhead 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 37 of 56 (239173)
08-31-2005 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Brian
08-31-2005 12:18 PM


Learning to Read
You have not given anything outside the Bible as a reference.

1) Modern Reference Encyclopedia - dating Hinduism last.
2) Josephus, the world famous Jewish historian.
3) Encyclopedia date - 606 BC - for fall of Judah in 588 BC.
4) Robert Milligan.
5) John L. Bray.
6) 4 book titles on "inclusive language."
7) Modern Reference Encyclopedia - dating last book of Old Testament in 2nd century BC.
I am sure there have been many others; but you have lied about everything that I have posted.

hoaryhead


This message is a reply to:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 2310 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 38 of 56 (239174)
08-31-2005 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by hoaryhead
08-31-2005 4:29 PM


More drivel
For: Brian;

1) "Now, add the 480 years of 1 Kings 6.1 on to 1006 [BC] and you get 1488 BC for the Exodus."

Nope, I never said 1488, I said 1486, go back and read it again.

2) I love it when you Atheists talk so foolishly,

Why have you put a capital 'A' at atheist?

as though you were wiser than your Maker,

Well we invented God so obviously we are wiser.

and as though your words could overrule the word of God.

I didn't over rule the word of God, I used it to demonstrate that your source is inaccurate.

The reason is this: "Sometimes you touch on a subject that I have not investigated,

I don't think that you have investigated very much.

But Brian has ignored the deliverance from the Dark Ages, and has returned to deductive logic - only.

Evidence is a damn nuisance isn't it? I wish I didn't have to insist on it so often.

4) "The God of gory appeared........drivel......drivel.......drivel now totaling 567 years.

How do you arrive at 567 years?

Who is the God of gory?

7) Another opposer of God also denied the 450 years of Judges. But Paul was dogmatic, saying, "450 years until Samuel the prophet" (13.20).
So then, in the book of Judges we have 410 years of Judges, but it is stated that Israel did not always listen to the judges (2.17); and Eli judged 40 years (1Sam 4.18), "until Samuel."
410 Years + 40 Years = 450 Years of Judges until Samuel.

What evidence do you have that the period of the Judges lasted 450 years, or are we taking the circular reasoning route again?

8) That is too much evidence to be dismissed lightly.

You havent provided any evidence at all, nothing but bible quotes. What evidence do you have that there was a period of the Judges?

(1 Kings 6.1) means. (This was a supernatural operation.

Roughly translated as "I havent got a clue so I will play the anti-intellectual card.

Because I am a faithful witness to the True and Living God, and to His Son, Iesous Anointed; He has promised to send me Wisdom. See: James 1.4-8.

Are you feeling okay?

"He will be (HYHY) in eighty years and in 400 years [Gen 15.13], to coming; sons of Israel; from land of Egypt, in the fourth year, in month of Ziv; this the second month to Solomon 'kinging' over Israel, and he built the temple to 'He Is' (Yahweh)" - 1Ki 6.1.

Very good, but this isn't 1 Kings 6:1.

This is:

In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites had come out of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, the second month, he began to build the temple of the LORD.

The verse is clear that there was 480 years between the exodus and the fourth year of Solomon's reign, hallucinate all you want, the text doesn't say what you want it to.

The four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites had come out of Egypt, you need to read the text because this is getting extremely boring.

God was "in" the 80 years [Judg 3.30], and in the 400 years [2035 - 1635 BC], and Solomon built the temple to "He Is" [God is only in the present tense].

God can be in whatever she wants, your source is still inaccurate.

That is why the Devil wants your mind on "the long ago" and on "the far off."

Better to have a mind and be deceived than never to have thought at all.

Come back when you have a better understanding of the Old Testament.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
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hoaryhead 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 39 of 56 (239177)
08-31-2005 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by MangyTiger
08-31-2005 4:38 PM


Petrified Forest in Arizona
Thank you.

I stand corrected.
You stand disproved saying, "no flood."

hoaryhead


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 2310 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 40 of 56 (239182)
08-31-2005 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by hoaryhead
08-31-2005 6:16 PM


Re: Learning to Read
1) Modern Reference Encyclopedia - dating Hinduism last. 2) Josephus, the world famous Jewish historian.

Josephus says what and where does he say it?

3) Encyclopedia date - 606 BC - for fall of Judah in 588 BC.

based on what?

4) Robert Milligan.

Spike's brother?

5) John L. Bray.

This explains a lot.

6) 4 book titles on "inclusive language."

Do I have to use ESP to discover the titles? Anyway, you don't need books to know that "their" can be used in a singular context.

7) Modern Reference Encyclopedia - dating last book of Old Testament in 2nd century BC.

Based on what?

When does it date the writing down of Genesis?

I am sure there have been many others; but you have lied about everything that I have posted.

I have lied :laugh:

I am not in the habit of telling lies, but if you show me an example I will apologise for it.

Brian.


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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 56 (239183)
08-31-2005 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by hoaryhead
08-31-2005 6:16 PM


You are suspended for 24 hours.
You have called another member a liar. That is simply not acceptable adult behavior. You are suspended for 24 hours to give you time to grow up.


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

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This message is a reply to:
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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 538 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 42 of 56 (239193)
08-31-2005 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by AdminJar
08-31-2005 6:33 PM


Re: You are suspended for 24 hours.
If you don't do this soon, I'd put money on the Admins giving you a little vacation from posting.

Wow, that didn't take long :P


Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 43 of 56 (239253)
08-31-2005 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Brian
08-31-2005 12:18 PM


Re: A Bible Timeline
How can 5 plus 8 equal 12?
Didn't we have a year 0, did we go from 1 BCE to 1 CE?

actually, yes. there is no year zero in this silly calendar system we have that is off by ~4 years from it's intended target (note: I agree with hoaryhead here), according to several analysises I have seen (it could be 3 and it could be 6 too) based on other known historical events (from other sources).


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3013
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 44 of 56 (239994)
09-02-2005 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by hoaryhead
08-31-2005 6:22 PM


Re: Petrified Forest in Arizona
And what evidence of that is, aside from your asserstion.

What is the evidence , from scientific peer reviewed articles, that the forest was made by a flood at all, much less a 'world wide flood'?


This message is a reply to:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1345 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 45 of 56 (240120)
09-02-2005 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by hoaryhead
08-31-2005 4:29 PM


Re: 400 Years and 80 Years
8) That is too much evidence to be dismissed lightly

It`s not dismissed lightly, it`s thrown aside with force.:D


This message is a reply to:
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