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Author Topic:   What's Best Reconciliation of Gen 1 and 2 You've Heard?
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4335 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 36 of 307 (125832)
07-20-2004 12:46 AM


Geneses Chapter one and Chapter two are separate accounts of the same events. However, unlike most modern literature not every thing is set in chronological order.
Geneses Chapter one is a chronological account of the events of creation; its purpose is to chronicle for us the creation of all things in this universe (Please note that this is not meant to be a detailed chronicle, more an overview).
Geneses chapter two, on the other hand, has a different purpose, and is not a chronological account of the events.
The purpose of Geneses chapter two is to chronicle the fall of mankind. Thus, just be cause item B is mention as being created and then item A is mention as being created there is no reason to say that item B must have been created first.
The verses in chapter two that have created this confusion are Geneses 2: 18 -19
18. And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19. And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
(KJV)
Now reading these two verses it is easy to come to the conclusions that:
‘ God created man before animals
‘ Gods reason for creating the animals was to find a (help meet) for Adam
However, if you take it from the point of view that this is an account of God’s first dealing with man, then you can see that the writer is not listing thing in chronological order, rather he is listing them in order of relevance to the subject he is speaking to. In verse 19 he references to the creation of the animals to show that thy wouldn’t make appropriate help meets to Adam. Thus, there is no contradiction between Geneses chapters One and Two.

John3: 16, 17

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 07-20-2004 2:05 AM JRTjr has replied

JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4335 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 38 of 307 (125871)
07-20-2004 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by chicowboy
07-19-2004 3:20 PM


It appears to me that you have chosen to reject the teaching of the Bible
Dear Chicowboy,
I would like to comment on your posting dated 7/19/4’. Specifically the last two paragraphs.
Please forgive me if this hits to close to home. It is not my intention to harm or insult you.
It appears to me that you have chosen to reject the teaching of the Bible on the bases of your abusive father’s use of, and quotation from it.
Please do not think me callus, but I believe your logic is flawed here. Have you ever read the Bible, through, completely?
The Bible makes it clear that we are to Love even our enemies. {Luke 6: 27 - 29} You state that your father was not concerned with your safety, and that he did not love you.
The Bible makes it clear that we should be sober. {I Peter 5: 8} The Bible makes it clear that being a drunkard is not a good thing.
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. {I Corinthians 6: 9 - 11}(KJV)
Many people have misused, misquoted, and down right lied about what is in the Bible. Does that make the Bible wrong?
If I said that my abusive, and alcoholic father was a police officer, or a judge, and that he clamed that his position gave him the right to do these thing, is he right? Should I hate the law, because he abused it also?
Again, I am not trying to hurt you. My intention here is to help you make a distinction between a man who claimed to be of god, and the God of the Bible.
On another subject, could you explain what you mean buy Without science there would be no Bible for you to read.? I though it an interesting statement.
If you would like to correspond with me on this or any other issue, Please E-Mail me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by chicowboy, posted 07-19-2004 3:20 PM chicowboy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by chicowboy, posted 07-21-2004 8:10 PM JRTjr has not replied

JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4335 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 39 of 307 (125881)
07-20-2004 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by crashfrog
07-20-2004 2:05 AM


Which conclusion are you asking about?
Which conclusion are you asking about? The Conclusion that chapter two has a different purpose or that it is not a chronological account of the events
My conclusion that its purpose is not to chronicle the creation event, I believe, is supported by the fact that the focus of chapter two is on Mankind.
My conclusion that it is not a chronological account of the events is based on simple deduction.
There are two possibilities
1) Chapter two is a chronological account of creation; in which it conflicts with the first chapter.
2) Chapter two is not a chronological account; thus, there is no contradiction with chapter two.
The text can easily be interpreted ether way. Therefore, instead of thinking the author was a blooming idiot, it seams reasonable to say that the order in which he place the two events {creation of mankind and creation of animals} was not by chronology but by relevance to the subject he was on. {I.E. his subject was not the animals it was mankind}
The wording in chapter two does not emphatically state that animals were created before mankind; it simply references to the creation of mankind before mentioning the creation of animals.

John3: 16, 17

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 07-20-2004 2:05 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by crashfrog, posted 07-20-2004 4:25 AM JRTjr has replied

JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4335 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 45 of 307 (126854)
07-23-2004 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by crashfrog
07-20-2004 4:25 AM


If my logic is so faulty, please, show me where I went wrong.
First, thank for the typographical correction.
Second, You state that I assume that there's no contradiction between G1 and G2, {then} there is no contradiction between G1 and G2.
Using your own logic, I could just as easily say that you assume there is a contradiction, therefore there must be one.
The thing I do not understand is how you can say I have not showed that they do not conflict. Is there no such thing as a contextual clue? I am sorry there’s not a single verse in chapter two that says, Hay, people, this is in order of importance, not time.
If I were to used the following two sentences when speaking with you?
On Tuesday I had a meeting with someone about schedule changes and then one on Friday about the budget. The meeting about the budget went well, however they want me to pick up another day.
Would you say that I am contradicting myself?
If my logic is so faulty, please, show me where I went wrong. On the subject of faulty logic, you suggest, that these are two different but similar oral histories passed down Here you suggest that Ch1 and Ch2 where written by different authors.
a) What historical evidence do you have to support this supposition?
b) Ch2 starts off Thus the Heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. It sounds like all of creation has been finished, and the writer is starting on what came next. {I.E. after the creation event} {Could this be a contextual clue?}
About Geneses 2: 18 — 22, now who is jumping to conclusions. You’re making the assumption that because God is talking about His main subject {I.E. man} and thus mentions him first, that everything that follows must have happened in sequence that it was written. Is it not customary when writing English to mention the main subject before the secondary subjects? If you’ll notice it says And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field It did not say And then out of This is not a typo, it shows that the event {I.E. out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field} did not necessarily happen after the formerly mention situation {I.E. the man He had created and placed in the garden}. {Could this be another contextual clue?}
Try this on for size.
Read all of Ch1, and then ask yourself ’what was the main subject, what was the authors point in writing Geneses Chapter 1’. Then read all of Ch2, and again, ask yourself ‘what was the main subject’.
If the main subject of both is, as you say, two different but similar oral histories of creation, then I am wrong. However, if their main subjects are different, then is it not at least possible, that I am right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by crashfrog, posted 07-20-2004 4:25 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by crashfrog, posted 07-23-2004 3:21 AM JRTjr has replied

JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4335 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 47 of 307 (129438)
08-01-2004 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by crashfrog
07-23-2004 3:21 AM


The Geneses Hypothesis
Sir. Crashfrog, Thou hast insulted thy Honor.
Taking off the glove from my right had, I slap you across the face.
I challenge thee, Sir Crashfrog, to a duel at thirty pages.
O.K. All joking aside, it seams that you have formed a hypothesis about Ch1 v Ch 2. Correct me if I’m wrong, but this seams to be what your saying.
You hypotheses that Geneses Chapters One, and Two are:
A) Both chronological accounts of creation {I.E. They both describe the order in which Universe and earth were constructed.}
B) Both myths {I.E. there is no factual evidence to show that ether are true, or both directly contradict the established history of the origins of the universe and the history of life on this Earth.}
C) Originally authored by different writers.
D) In direct contradiction to each other.
Instead of challenging you to a duel, I’d like to invite you, and anyone who would like to join us, to a little textual experiment. We have a Hypotheses, so, lets test it.
Now, as I understand it, the scientific method goes something like this.
1) Correctly identify the frame of Reference.
2) Determine the initial conditions.
3) Perform an experiment, or observe the phenomenon noting what takes place, and when and where.
4) Note the final conditions.
5) Form an hypothesis.
6) Test the hypothesis with further experiments and/or observations.
I also see the need to put forth a few definitions; this so that we’re all on the same page.
According to my Webster’s New World College Dictionary, third Edition, 1997 the following are defined as such:
Contradiction: 2a statement in opposition to another; denial. {Direct opposition between two statements or between any two things compared.}
Paradox: 1[Archaic] a statement contrary to common belief 2a statement that seems contradictory, unbelievable, or absurd but that may be true in fact {a seeming contradiction that can be resolved.}
To start off, I guess the first thing we should do is start at the beginning. We must first establish the correct frame of Reference.
Now, as Crashfrog has correctly stated, the chapter and verse breaks in the Bible are not original, they were added later. So if you take out the Chapter and verse breaks you get a single continues story; as it originally was read.
Lets stop where Chapter two stops, simply because this is the scope of our discussion. If we take into account the whole of the text, {I.E. Looking at it as one continuous account} a few questions arise.
1) Taking the text as a whole, why would the writer give two apposing accounts of creation in the same text, even if the original accounts were by different authors?
2) The second portion of the text seams to be repeatedly referring back to the first half of the text. Could this mean that the second half is not an account of the creation event, rather an account of Gods dealing with mankind?
So, what do you think the proper frame of reference is in this case?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by crashfrog, posted 07-23-2004 3:21 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 08-09-2004 12:02 PM JRTjr has seen this message but not replied

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