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Author Topic:   Name The City
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1642
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 61 of 126 (474718)
07-10-2008 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Buzsaw
07-10-2008 8:20 AM


Re: Prophecies
Vatican City is not a nation/country. It's a religious hierarchical city.

Wrong once again Buz. And what is even funnier about this time is that way back in 2003 in message 22 of this thread you even stated that the Vactican City was an independent state:

Vatican City began to emerge as early as the 4th century as I understand it, but didn't actually become an independent city/state until 1929.

The world body is committing illegitimate political fornication with this religious entity.

Why is it illegitimate? Sovergein nations fornicate with each other all the time, sometimes in groups even.


soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Buzsaw, posted 07-10-2008 8:20 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 07-10-2008 10:46 PM DrJones* has responded

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 62 of 126 (474722)
07-10-2008 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Buzsaw
07-09-2008 10:57 PM


Re: Prophecies
quote:
There was a time in history subsequent to the time of the prophecy to the tune of several centuries when the popes of Rome essentially ruled the rulers of the world, i.e. ".....kings of the earth have commited fornication with her." (Revelation 18:3).

And there was a time in history when the Emperors of Rome did the exact same thing. Considering that the people writing and reading revelations would have been much more concerned with the actions of the Roman Empire and that Nero written in Aramaic equals 666. The destruction of Rome did cause much chaos and destruction. The actual fires of Rome may not have been "seen" but their effects certainly were. I believe the much more logical conclusion is that which affects the original intended readers and not those latecomers who hang onto pre fulfilled political commentary. Ding, ding, ding and the answer is ancient Rome. Thanks for playing, hopefully we can continue to construe ancient documents to justify homicide until we do find a way to self fulfill the prophecy.

DrJones writes

quote:
Sovergein nations fornicate with each other all the time, sometimes in groups even.

Do you have a video you could post of this? That would be hot

Edited by rueh, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 07-09-2008 10:57 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Buzsaw, posted 07-10-2008 10:28 PM rueh has responded
 Message 84 by sl33w, posted 07-12-2008 4:32 PM rueh has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12438
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 63 of 126 (474748)
07-10-2008 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Buzsaw
07-09-2008 10:57 PM


Re: Prophecies
I note that you are not only reviving a thread that is nearly 5 years old, you still haven't dealt with most of my points.

quote:

1. There was a time in history subsequent to the time of the prophecy to the tune of several centuries when the popes of Rome essentially ruled the rulers of the world, i.e. ".....kings of the earth have commited fornication with her." (Revelation 18:3). The world body to this day has given (imo) undue respect to Vatican City, allowing it a place in the world body with ambassadors etc.

Vatican City as such dates back only to 1929, so your facts hardly apply to it. Even so far as they are facts. The relationship between the Popes and the European monarchs were not so simple even before the Reformation. The Pope claimed authority, the Kings did not always grant it. And sometimes the boot was on the other foot - a king with troops in the right place could tell the Pope what to do.

quote:

2. My understanding of the typography of Rome is that it does not sit on seven hills but that there are seven hills in the region of the city. I see the seven hills as the seven continents of the world so far as the prophecy goes.

Rome was built on seven hills - as has already been shown. A simple Google search would have quickly found the answer. Do your homework Buz.

As for the rest, Vatican City is hardly a major trading centre. so it does not fit Revelation 18 in that respect.

The seven hills are given as an explanation, so they are likely literal hills - not continents.

As I - and others - have already pointed out the Seven Hills of Rome were well-known at the time of writing. The seven continents - not at all.

quote:

3. There you go again.....spinning factual information relative to someone or something into hate simply because the facts implicate a negative connotation.

I'm not sure what you mean. The fact is that the UN intervened in Bosnia because of a campaign of murder, rape and torture being carried out against civilians. Even given that the perpretrators came from "Christian" ethnic groups and the victims from a "Muslim" group does not make it evidence of a bias in favour of Muslims or against Christians.

If you want to insist that the murder, rape and torture of Muslims is a Christian duty then go ahead. If you didn't mean that - and I'm, still giving you the benefit of thr doubt in assumign that you didn't - then I repeat my suggestion that you retract your statement.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 07-09-2008 10:57 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Buzsaw, posted 07-10-2008 10:49 PM PaulK has responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 126 (474771)
07-10-2008 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by subbie
07-10-2008 8:38 AM


Re: Prophecies
subbie writes:

If you had any actual evidence that the writer knew that there were 7 continents, that would impress me greatly. But, beyond that, exactly how does Vatican City rule over Antarctica?

I believe there's at least one Catholic church on that continent, but not sure. The prophecy is worded so that the large island, Greenland, could be counted as the 7th continent.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by subbie, posted 07-10-2008 8:38 AM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by subbie, posted 07-11-2008 8:34 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 82 by Brian, posted 07-12-2008 6:59 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 126 (474773)
07-10-2008 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by RickJB
07-10-2008 8:40 AM


Re: Prophecies
RickJB writes:

I think you mean "topography".

Also, Rome did indeed cover seven hills.

Right on both counts. Thanks, Rick. The hill villages which had their own names and walls became part and parcel of the walled city of Rome.

I should have said that Vatican City does not sit on the seven hills. Vatican City has real estate (i.e. sits) on all the continents with, perhaps, Greenland substituting as number 7 continent.

According to Revelation 17:9 and 17:15, the heads of the beast are seven hills (high places) on which the woman sits and the waters are the nations of the earth.

Since in verse 1 the woman sits on the waters and in verse 15 the woman sits also on the hills the hills (i.e. topographical high places) must be the continents upon which the nations are.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by RickJB, posted 07-10-2008 8:40 AM RickJB has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 126 (474774)
07-10-2008 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by rueh
07-10-2008 11:39 AM


Re: Prophecies
Rueh, Rome doesn't fit the prophecy for the reasons I've stated. Would you care to weigh in on my response to Rick?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by rueh, posted 07-10-2008 11:39 AM rueh has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by rueh, posted 07-11-2008 9:26 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 126 (474777)
07-10-2008 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by DrJones*
07-10-2008 11:03 AM


Re: Prophecies
DrJones writes:

Wrong once again Buz. And what is even funnier about this time is that way back in 2003 in message 22 of this thread you even stated that the Vactican City was an independent state:

Why is it illegitimate? Sovergein nations fornicate with each other all the time, sometimes in groups even.

The Holy See is a religious hierarchy, unlike all other nations.

Ambassadors are officially accredited not to the Vatican City State but to "the Holy See", and papal representatives to states and international organizations are recognized as representing the Holy See, not the Vatican City State.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by DrJones*, posted 07-10-2008 11:03 AM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by DrJones*, posted 07-10-2008 10:52 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 126 (474779)
07-10-2008 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by PaulK
07-10-2008 2:09 PM


Re: Prophecies
Paul, I believe most of what you are calling for has been either addressed elsewhere in the thread or in my last few responses.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by PaulK, posted 07-10-2008 2:09 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2008 1:34 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1642
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 69 of 126 (474780)
07-10-2008 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Buzsaw
07-10-2008 10:46 PM


Re: Prophecies
The Holy See is a religious hierarchy, unlike all other nations

The Holy See is not the nation. The State of the Vatican City is the nation. If you want to argue about the legimatcy of the Holy See do that, instead of lieing about whether or not the Vatican City is a sovereign nation.


soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 07-10-2008 10:46 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12438
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 70 of 126 (474792)
07-11-2008 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Buzsaw
07-10-2008 10:49 PM


Re: Prophecies
quote:

Paul, I believe most of what you are calling for has been either addressed elsewhere in the thread or in my last few responses.

OK, then they all stand since I haven't seen a solid refutation of any of them.

Oh, and we can add that the prophecy is NOT written so that Greenland could be counted as one of the seven continents because it doesn't talk about seven continents. Just seven hills which you like to think are continents (and not on the basis of anything in the text.

Ancient Rome still fits the text better than Vatican City.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Buzsaw, posted 07-10-2008 10:49 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
subbie
Member (Idle past 57 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 71 of 126 (474813)
07-11-2008 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Buzsaw
07-10-2008 9:33 PM


Re: Prophecies
quote:
I believe there's at least one Catholic church on that continent, but not sure. The prophecy is worded so that the large island, Greenland, could be counted as the 7th continent.

Well, don't worry about it too much. If it turns out that neither of those things is correct, I'm sure you can make up something else to save your fantasy. That's the nature of irrational bigotry, it doesn't require any actual facts to support it.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 07-10-2008 9:33 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 72 of 126 (474820)
07-11-2008 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Buzsaw
07-10-2008 10:28 PM


Re: Prophecies
buzz I don't see anywhere in the thread where you have refuted anything about Rome. I see plenty of times where you would rather it be the Vatican, but as far as proving it couldn't be Rome...... well maybe I am missunderstanding your rebuttal. Could you explain to me again then why you think Rome was not the mentioned city.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Buzsaw, posted 07-10-2008 10:28 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Buzsaw, posted 07-11-2008 5:15 PM rueh has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 126 (474858)
07-11-2008 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by rueh
07-11-2008 9:26 AM


Re: Prophecies
rueh writes:

buzz I don't see anywhere in the thread where you have refuted anything about Rome. I see plenty of times where you would rather it be the Vatican, but as far as proving it couldn't be Rome...... well maybe I am missunderstanding your rebuttal. Could you explain to me again then why you think Rome was not the mentioned city.

I (abe: reviewed) what I had posted to Rick and I think I see how I confused you pertaining my position.

I said:

I should have said that Vatican City does not sit on the seven hills. Vatican City has real estate (i.e. sits) on all the continents with, perhaps, Greenland substituting as number 7 continent.

1. What I should have said was that Vatican City does not sit on the seven hills of Rome, but it does sit on seven masses of land (i.e. owns real estate) globally which could be considered topographically high masses of land relative to the ocean floor such as continents and large islands are.

2. Since the harlot woman sits both on the waters which are the nations as per the following texts, the hills (high land masses) cannot be Rome's hills because the nations are not in Rome. They are global. Thus the hills MUST BE global for the prophecy to make sense.

The rest of my statement to Rick:

According to Revelation 17:9 and 17:15, the heads of the beast are seven hills (high places) on which the woman sits and the waters are the nations of the earth.

Since in verse 1 the woman sits on the waters and in verse 15 the woman sits also on the hills the hills (i.e. topographical high places) must be the continents (or global high land masses) upon which the nations are.

It gets a bit complicated and to understand and interpret the prophecy correctly one must do some homework and carefully corroborate the statements in chapters 17 and 18 of the prophecy in Revelation.

My antagonists fail to do that. They would rather choose to smear the integrity of the messenger than to study the facts out and apply what is written.

Of course, as usual, the bottom line is that secularists have a serious fobia of anything hinting of the supernatural. They MUST come up with something - anything to fit their fobia.

Edited by Buzsaw, : Improved wording as noted.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by rueh, posted 07-11-2008 9:26 AM rueh has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2008 5:44 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 75 by Coragyps, posted 07-11-2008 5:49 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12438
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 74 of 126 (474862)
07-11-2008 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Buzsaw
07-11-2008 5:15 PM


Re: Prophecies
quote:

1. What I should have said was that Vatican City does not sit on the seven hills of Rome, but it does sit on seven masses of land (i.e. owns real estate) globally which could be considered topographically high masses of land relative to the ocean floor such as continents and large islands are.

Even if Vatican City DID own small patches of land on seven ill-defined "land-masses" that would be an incredibly strained reading of the prophecy. And you've presented no evidence that Vatican City as such does own such land.

quote:

2. Since the harlot woman sits both on the waters which are the nations as per the following texts, the hills (high land masses) cannot be Rome's hills because the nations are not in Rome. They are global. Thus the hills MUST BE global for the prophecy to make sense.

That is an over-literal and confused reading. The woman is said to sit on the waters (17:1) and is then seen in a vision sitting on the beast - with no mention of the waters - (17:3) and the seven hills are one of the two meanings given to the seven heads of the beast (17:9). Nothing implies that the hills need to be global.

quote:

It gets a bit complicated and to understand and interpret the prophecy correctly one must do some homework and carefully corroborate the statements in chapters 17 and 18 of the prophecy in Revelation.

My antagonists fail to do that. They would rather choose to smear the integrity of the messenger than to study the facts out and apply what is written.


As usual you make false accusations to cover up the fact that it is you who has not read nor understood the Bible.

As I have previously pointed out, the city in question is a major commercial centre.
(18:11-18)

Also, the city is described as a Great City. Vatican City is - even by ancient standards - a piddling little city occupying a mere 0.17 square miles and with fewer than a thousand inhabitants. The LOW estimate for 1st Century Rome is half a million inhabitants.

Vatican City doesn't fit the prophecy nearly as well as Ancient Rome, the Great City, the city that completely controlled the Mediterranean Sea (how's that for "sits upon the waters" ?) and dominated the known world.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Buzsaw, posted 07-11-2008 5:15 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Buzsaw, posted 07-11-2008 7:43 PM PaulK has responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5266
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 75 of 126 (474864)
07-11-2008 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Buzsaw
07-11-2008 5:15 PM


Re: Prophecies
Thus the hills MUST BE global for the prophecy to make sense.

I found your problem....


"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Buzsaw, posted 07-11-2008 5:15 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Buzsaw, posted 07-11-2008 7:50 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

    
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