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Author Topic:   How do you define the word Evolution?
Faith
Member
Posts: 26270
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 886 of 936 (813862)
07-01-2017 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 885 by RAZD
07-01-2017 12:27 PM


Re: Faith: Macroevolution is any new population beyond the boundary of the Kind
My definition of the Kind is functional, defined by the point at which evolution runs out of genetic diversity. I don't think there is any way to define the Kind otherwise, except for certain creatures, such as cats, where of course the fact that some can't interbreed doesn't change the fact that they are Cats. I've argued my functional definition for years now.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by RAZD, posted 07-01-2017 12:27 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 887 by JonF, posted 07-01-2017 1:00 PM Faith has responded
 Message 888 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 1:12 PM Faith has responded
 Message 899 by RAZD, posted 07-01-2017 5:35 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 914 by Taq, posted 07-05-2017 12:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3960
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 887 of 936 (813864)
07-01-2017 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 886 by Faith
07-01-2017 12:42 PM


Re: Faith: Macroevolution is any new population beyond the boundary of the Kind
IOW a fantasy you made up and non-functional because there's no way to apply it. Sweet.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 886 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 12:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 889 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 1:13 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 888 of 936 (813865)
07-01-2017 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 886 by Faith
07-01-2017 12:42 PM


Re: Faith: Macroevolution is any new population beyond the boundary of the Kind
Faith writes:

My definition of the Kind is functional...

I keep having to remember what it is that you believe.

The earth was made in a single act of creation about 6,000 years ago. It was fully populated with all the organisms we find in the fossil record, plus man and, I'm guessing, all the stuff we have today?

Then he floods the earth 4,000 years ago killing pretty much everything.

But he takes 2s and 7s of some of the critters and they become the 'kinds' that everything else evolves from?

So, for example, he takes two kangaroos and from those two all the marsupials that now exist spring from them? They do it quickly too, because we have records of modern animals being around from way back.

So there's enormous genetic diversity in these original kinds - presumably put there by miracle - and a miraculous process to get so much change, so quickly and spread so thickly across the drowned world.

So presumably all the species we see alive today are at the end of their capacity to keep evolving?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 886 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 12:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 890 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 1:19 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 892 by PaulK, posted 07-01-2017 1:26 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 893 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 1:28 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26270
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 889 of 936 (813866)
07-01-2017 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 887 by JonF
07-01-2017 1:00 PM


Re: Faith: Macroevolution is any new population beyond the boundary of the Kind
There isn't a definition, you see, because the taxonomic categories are all over the place with respect to what a Kind has to be; and although I think my "functional definition" is true, that is, the point at which evolution runs out of genetic diversity must be the boundary of the Kind, it isn't exactly a definition either. But it has to be true and it has to mark that boundary. I've shown over and over that evolutionary processes do use up genetic diversity, that mutation gets used up like any other allele in the same processes, even if it's rarely reached there is a point at which there is nothing but fixed loci left beyond which further evolution can't happen. And that has to be the boundary of the Kinhd.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 887 by JonF, posted 07-01-2017 1:00 PM JonF has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 900 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-01-2017 6:02 PM Faith has responded
 Message 903 by dwise1, posted 07-02-2017 6:10 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26270
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 890 of 936 (813867)
07-01-2017 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 888 by Tangle
07-01-2017 1:12 PM


Re: Faith: Macroevolution is any new population beyond the boundary of the Kind
The enormous diversity in the originals turns out to be easy enough to account for. Enormous variety is possible from creatures with high heterozygosity, multiple genes per trait with two alleles per gene (even if some got more alleles by mutation later they aren't necessary to the enormous variability), and all or most genes intact (little or no "junk DNA). The fact that all it takes is two genes of two alleles to produce all the human skin colors from black to white in sixteen combinations, plus the fact that there are more genes than two for skin color, ought to demonstrate the enormous variability in ordinary Mendelian genetics.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 888 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 1:12 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 891 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 1:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 891 of 936 (813868)
07-01-2017 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 890 by Faith
07-01-2017 1:19 PM


Re: Faith: Macroevolution is any new population beyond the boundary of the Kind
Faith writes:

The enormous diversity in the originals turns out to be easy enough to account for.

Yeh, whatever.

Is what I wrote roughly what you believe? Have the kinds now run out of diversity and therefore ability to evolve further?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 890 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 1:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13110
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 892 of 936 (813869)
07-01-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 888 by Tangle
07-01-2017 1:12 PM


Re: Faith: Macroevolution is any new population beyond the boundary of the Kind
Apologies: this was intended as a response to Message 889

As I keep pointing out there is no need for sustained decline in diversity. A mutant allele replacing the previous version is still evolution.

Thus your "boundary" must either be purely based on what did happen, and is therefore useless or must incorporate all possible trajectories of evolution and still be useless.

Any useful definition of macroevolution must at least include examples of evolution that is believed to have happened by the mainstream theory. But according to your definition if they happened they cannot be macroevolution - which rules out knowing that they are examples.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 888 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 1:12 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26270
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 893 of 936 (813870)
07-01-2017 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 888 by Tangle
07-01-2017 1:12 PM


Re: Faith: Macroevolution is any new population beyond the boundary of the Kind
So there's enormous genetic diversity in these original kinds - presumably put there by miracle -

No miracle, just simple elegant design, as explained in the above post.

and a miraculous process to get so much change, so quickly and spread so thickly across the drowned world.

Nothing miraculous about it. A few hundred years is all it should take to disperse the animals and begin creating new species. Plants should have become copious by then for sure, already within a few years of the Ark for that matter. Genetic change is simply a lot faster than the ToE has conditioned you to think. You can get lots of new breeds from wild stock, say cattle, within a couple hundred years. All it takes is reproductive isolation of a portion of the original population.

So presumably all the species we see alive today are at the end of their capacity to keep evolving?

Some are, some are close, but there are others that still have a lot of genetic diversity, the ones that haven't evolved as much, say the wildebeests, which exist in huge populations but with only three varieties or races. It's evolution that eats up genetic diversity, but there are animals, herd animals in particular I would guess, that retain most of their genetic diversity from the Ark.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 888 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 1:12 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 894 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 1:44 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 894 of 936 (813871)
07-01-2017 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 893 by Faith
07-01-2017 1:28 PM


Re: Faith: Macroevolution is any new population beyond the boundary of the Kind
Faith writes:

No miracle, just simple elegant design, as explained in the above post.

I think we have to regard the act of design and creation as a little miraculous. As would be selecting the marsupial that could evolve in a few generations into all the existing marsupials.

Or am I mistaken in imagining that prior to the flood all the stuff that exists today, also existed then? Or was it just a few kinds that existed then - say I kangaroo but no other marsupials?

Some are, some are close,

The ones that still have a load of diversity aren't noticeably evolving - that is changing within a few generations into other distinct species. Your wildebeest has remained pretty much the same since records began without splitting off dozens of branches - why would that be?

It seems god's work is incomplete. I guess that means that we can relax about the end time prophecies.....

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 893 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 1:28 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 895 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 2:42 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26270
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 895 of 936 (813873)
07-01-2017 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 894 by Tangle
07-01-2017 1:44 PM


Re: Faith: Macroevolution is any new population beyond the boundary of the Kind
Faith writes:
No miracle, just simple elegant design, as explained in the above post.

I think we have to regard the act of design and creation as a little miraculous.

I wasn't talking about the act of creation, which of course was miraculous, I was talking about the design itself which is simple and elegant and understandable and operates by normal physical processes.

As would be selecting the marsupial that could evolve in a few generations into all the existing marsupials.

Who has said there was only one?

Or am I mistaken in imagining that prior to the flood all the stuff that exists today, also existed then? Or was it just a few kinds that existed then - say I kangaroo but no other marsupials?

It had been what? -- 1500 years or so -- since the Creation? That means there had already been a lot of microevolution of all the Kinds. If there was only one version of marsupial on the Ark it wouldn't have been a kangaroo.

Some are\are close,

The ones that still have a load of diversity aren't noticeably evolving - that is changing within a few generations into other distinct species. Your wildebeest has remained pretty much the same since records began without splitting off dozens of branches - why would that be?

Because it exists in huge herds, a million of the black wildebeests. Evolution occurs when you get a portion of a population reproductively isolated, by natural selection or by random selection such as migration of a portion away from the main population, so that the new population inbreeds among a very limited new set of gene frequencies. That isn't happening, the herd is staying together and that's why it's not evolving as a more independent or solitary kind of animal would. There is a blue wildebeest herd that lives at some distance from the black herd. One of them evolved from the other. The different characteristics are due to the different gene frequencies brought about by the population split. Some drift probably occurs within each population but nothing yet to produce a strikingly new phenotype.

It seems god's work is incomplete. I guess that means that we can relax about the end time prophecies.....

NO idea what you are saying here.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 894 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 1:44 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 896 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 3:44 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 896 of 936 (813875)
07-01-2017 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 895 by Faith
07-01-2017 2:42 PM


Re: Faith: Macroevolution is any new population beyond the boundary of the Kind
Faith writes:

Who has said there was only one?

I'm asking....

If there was only one version of marsupial on the Ark it wouldn't have been a kangaroo.

Uhuh? How many? Which?

It had been what? -- 1500 years or so -- since the Creation? That means there had already been a lot of microevolution of all the Kinds.

I'd say that was fairly close to the amount of time after the flood before we find written records of modern species. Though of course the situation after creation would have been more conducive than after this flood thing.

Because it exists in huge herds, a million of the black wildebeests.

Sounds like god got that one wrong then. If he wanted evolution of wildebeests he needed a different process.

NO idea what you are saying here.

Evolution is apparently still happening so god's plan is still unfulfilled.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 895 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 2:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 897 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 4:01 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26270
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 897 of 936 (813876)
07-01-2017 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 896 by Tangle
07-01-2017 3:44 PM


Re: Faith: Macroevolution is any new population beyond the boundary of the Kind
You have some idea about God's plan in relation to evolution? Where are you getting such an idea?

I'd guess a pair of marsupials. Nobody could possibly know, it's all educated guessing.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 896 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 3:44 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 898 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 4:13 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 898 of 936 (813877)
07-01-2017 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 897 by Faith
07-01-2017 4:01 PM


Re: Faith: Macroevolution is any new population beyond the boundary of the Kind
Faith writes:

You have some idea about God's plan in relation to evolution? Where are you getting such an idea?

I'm getting it from you. Apparently god designed species to evolve to a certain point then stop evolving when they run out of diversity. That point has been reached by some but not by others. So your god apparently still has plans.

I'd guess a pair of marsupials. Nobody could possibly know, it's all educated guessing.

Well I agree that it's guessing.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 897 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 4:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18959
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 899 of 936 (813881)
07-01-2017 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 886 by Faith
07-01-2017 12:42 PM


Re: Faith: Macroevolution is any new population beyond the boundary of the Kind
My definition of the Kind is functional, defined by the point at which evolution runs out of genetic diversity. ... I've argued my functional definition for years now.

To no avail because it is meaningless. Evolution has been running for over 3.5 billion years with mutations supplying the fuel for new traits, new varieties, new species, etc. and while some species have gone extinct the cause is as likely to be mass loss of integrated ecological habitat (extinction events).

Life not only survives extinction events it explodes into new species as populations invade habitats that are empty and opportunity is wide open (the foraminifera show this explosion of new species and forms after the KPg (formerly K-T) extinction\meteor impact).

As the niches become filled to species carrying capacity (ecological constraints) this rate of diversification slows down to what we see today (although we are coming up on a new extinction event caused by human carelessness\ignorance and it will be interesting to see Creationists struggle with new species ....).

The upshot Faith is that LIFE is not concerned with human survival or opinions, it will recover and flourish regardless .. unless we end up cauterizing every square inch of existing habitat ... including deep underground.

So let's get back to your presumed definition of macroevolution:

Macroevolution is any {new population} beyond the boundary of the Kind ...

Would this be a new (breeding?) population of organisms that is unrelated to any existing population?

or

Would this be a new (breeding?) population of organisms with entirely new DNA/genome/alleles that are not found in any existing population?

or

what???

Inquiring minds want to know.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 886 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 12:42 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 900 of 936 (813882)
07-01-2017 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 889 by Faith
07-01-2017 1:13 PM


Re: Faith: Macroevolution is any new population beyond the boundary of the Kind
I've shown over and over that evolutionary processes do use up genetic diversity, that mutation gets used up like any other allele in the same processes, even if it's rarely reached there is a point at which there is nothing but fixed loci left beyond which further evolution can't happen.

No, Faith, you have said that over and over. You have never shown it. You never will. It is obvious, childish, pitiful garbage. As everyone except you knows this, perhaps you should stop basing your arguments on it, since no sane person will accept it as a premise.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 889 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 1:13 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 901 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 8:11 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
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