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Author | Topic: The beginning of the jihad in Europe? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Silent H Member (Idle past 5849 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
As for Crashfrogs assertion that Christians are similar, it simply is not so. Christians can easily assimilate into a materialistic culture...that is why we are such sinners! Phat, here's a big clue, for all this psychologist talking about how antimaterial these people are, take a look at the actual nations. What do you see? While the nations are impoverished there are always really really rich guys at the top accumulating all sorts of wealth. It is the exact same thing as the Xian leaders here. They all believe in materialism and a devoted fanaticism to some ancient time. Its ironic that Islam gets singled out for wanting to recreate a 7th century empire, when every day Xians and Jews openly proclaim and work to recreate a 3000 year dead kingdom of Israel, as well as return to pre 7th century science and theology. All you guys are looking backward, or should I say large contingents of people professing allegiance to Abraham are seeking to resurrect past glories. Likely because the future can be seen and they are not in it. Not in the same way as they once were. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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ohnhai Member (Idle past 5191 days) Posts: 649 From: Melbourne, Australia Joined: |
Why is it that when black Christians riot, it's a black thing; but when black Muslims riot, it's a Muslim thing? Isn't that a little stupid? It's a black thing ”cause good Christians don’t do that kind of thing. Ok seriously it's more frustration against sociological/ economic factors. The fact that many of the immigrant poor who have had enough are from a religion that has chronically bad press in recent, well forever is not helping. As this is being overplayed by the media and thus egging the more militant element all the more angsty. focusing on the ethnicity of the rioters is not helping and is distracting from the real issues tere. But let’s not forget that this is France: a nation that are chronic wingers (let’s not forget the petulance of the French farmers blockading ports because they were upset.) (Note: I’m English, France bashing it somewhat of a national pastime)
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Yep. He showed up, right on time.
"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6502 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
He's a psychiatrist, actually, not that that matters. I agree with you that Christians are different (I say because of Christianity and the liberal democracies they created). In virtually every nation on Earth where there is a majority or substantial minority Muslim population, there is serious conflict within and without, between Muslims and non Muslims of any faith: Bhuddists, Jews, Hindus, Christians, etc., even minority Muslims. That is hardly true of Christian nations. We do not see Christians beheading Muslim girls, burning moques, outlawing other religions, flying planes into Mecca and so on. What's more, even in a nation like the US, where there is a relatively small population of Muslims, three prominent leaders of America's most important Muslim organization, CAIR, have been jailed for terrorist related activities. The founder of CAIR publicly stated that Islam is here to takeover from within and make the Koran the US constitution.
I mentioned above liberal democracy being one reason, as it is. The Christian world was pretty barbaric and no less violence-oriented until democracy arose. And yet there's still a difference, one that may explain why liberal democracy arose in Christian nations and not Islamic ones: Jesus himself, and his message, are entirely peaceful. In contrast, Mohammed was a pedophile, polyganist, slave owner and warrior, and his message is consistent with that. Not that i deny the peaceful and spiritual side to Islam. But the contrast between the two is reflected now, as it has always been, in the two Islamic camps: the martial jihadis and and the peaceful ones. This accounts for why not only non Muslims are the victims of the Jihadis, but most Muslim women and genuinely peaceful and tolerant Muslims of both genders.
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6502 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
It's like you're imprisoned to equivalence arguments, so trapped by this conventional cultural reflex that you can't escape it for even one bit of light and truth.
BTW, Israel was reborn after less than 2,000 years, not 3,000, and it was not reborn a biblical era nation, but a modern day liberal democracy.
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6502 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
England, The US, Australia 9and sadly, not Canada anymore), have beyond all stood for democracy and freedom. Ultimately, they have put ideals ahead of immediate self-interest. Not France. Its international behaviour is purely cyncical and appeases immediate self-interest. That is why France sold out a democracy, Israel, and sold out its alliance with the US in the 70's. France made a deal with the devil, for which it is now paying. That deal was with the Arab world. In exchange for massive business deals and geopolitical influence vis a vis the US, it agreed to vote with Arabs and the Islamic world at the UN, both against Israel and the US. It also agreed to take in masses of Muslim immigrants and not try to assimilate them. And so france burns, its very democracy under assault.
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6502 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
It was your post that I responded to. Otherwise, I would have ignored this thread. And this new posters have arrived, who are not reflexive moral relativists, and witrh whom rational discourse is therefore possible, I'm motivated to continue.
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6502 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
jews don't assimilate!!! Are you truly that obtuse? I won't say anymore. Instead, I'll let you get even more outrageous defending that statement, then i'll respond.
As for "It is the likes of Canadian Steve which claim they sometimes have ulterior motives to change the nations, rather than to simply come here and enjoy prosperity." You have not read me well. I have said that most Muslism do come to enjoy the economic benefits. I've also said many come to escape tyranny, from the Husseins and, ironically, the Islamists. But I've also said that the division within Islam between martial and spiritual jihadis means that many cannot assimilate. So they come for economic benefits, but either realize once here that they cannot assimilate, or never intended to regardless. In fact, they strctly intend not to, and for their children neither. The famed islamic author, Tariq Ramadan, recently made comments on exactly this, why the west should not expect Muslims to assimilate. You're certainly right that poverty is an issue behind the riots in France. But the bigger issue is why are Muslims poor, but not frnech bhuddists, Hindus, Jews, or any other identifiable group? The answer is found in Dalrymple's essay for which i provided a link: the refusal to assimilate, including holding to 7th century notions of women as property.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6525 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
Hey CS,
I agree that Islam has some screwed up philosophy/theology, but I don't see it as inherently different from any other Abrahamic faith. The fact that western countries tend to have better govt's. has little to do with Christianity and much more to do with Enlightenment values and the wealth generated thrugh conquest/colonization. Our liberal democracy comes not from Christians, but from enlightenment style values and ideology's that were fought for in bloody revolutions, often ousting brutal theocracy's. If it was up to the Christians we would be little different from the medieval muslim nations.
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6502 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
true, the Enlightenment is the key behind the modern day democratic revival. But, i would say, there could not have been an Enlightenment in the Islamic world, and it is not coincidental that it arose in the Christian one. I also agree that fundamentalist Christians would never have agreed to democracy and had to be displaced by enlightenment ideas. But those displacers were, generally, believing Christians too, of a more liberal bent with respect to faith.
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6502 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6502 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
Robert Spencer argues that religion has much to do with the rioting.
http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=...
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Hee hee hee. While you were gone I was reprimanded for insulting you; however, fortunately for you, I think the moderators are going to be a little lenient with you. Presumably because I actually should know better. Edited to add:P.S. I was tempted to start this very thread myself, just to see if I could get you to return. randman just saved me the trouble. This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 08-Nov-2005 04:03 PM "Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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randman ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
The Enlightenment were johnie-come-latelys to the cause of freedom. The fact of the matter is Christians were the ones that challenged establishment thinking in the arena of liberty, specifically arguing for religious liberty for centuries, suffering millions of deaths as the result of persecution for the cause, and finally with Rhode Island (Baptists) and Pennsylvania (Quakers) was the evangelical wing of Christianity able to put those ideas into practice, and prove their ideas, which were totally laughed at by establishment, educated thinkers.
So the establishment was open to Enlightenment ideas since some of those ideas, such as freedom of religion, had proved to work so well in the colonies. In other words, the Enlightenment did not originate those ideas, but was merely a portion of the educated, establishment thinkers adopting those ideas within a secularist persepective since they weren't about to become holy rollers for the most part, like the Quakers or Baptists, and the Anabaptists prior to that. To lightly dismiss the people that did the heavy lifting, often with their lives at stake, as inconsequential shows a complete ignorance of true Western history. This message has been edited by randman, 11-08-2005 11:01 AM
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The fact of the matter is Christians were the ones that challenged establishment thinking in the arena of liberty, specifically arguing for religious liberty for centuries,... Tell that to the Jews of Spain in 1542 that were rescued from Christian persecution by the Islamic world. Tell that to the Christians of Constantinople that were slaughtered by their fellow Christian Europeans. Tell that to the Aztecs and Incas of South America. Tell that to the Chrerokee, Apache, Powhatans, Senaca and other American Indians. Tell that to the Hawaiians who had there land, language, culture and very Nation stolen by Reverend Dole. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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