|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,889 Year: 4,146/9,624 Month: 1,017/974 Week: 344/286 Day: 65/40 Hour: 1/5 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 2979 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Obama supports Ground Zero mosque. Religious freedom or is he being too PC? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2979 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
How do you know that the Muslims have not seriously considered this, but decided that on balance it will be best to build? I don't doubt that Muslims will feel that way, but not the people who are offended by it.
How do you know that this will be "offending many people"? Maybe it is just political theater, and relatively few people will really be offended. That is a possibility, since I am just going by what the media is broadcasting. - Oni
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
|
onifre writes:
It is good to see that the real onifre is back. I wonder who was that obviously fake substitute.
Or... fuck everyone's sensitive issues, get over it, and expect to be offended plenty in life. Which is how I see it.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
That is a possibility, since I am just going by what the media is broadcasting. Conflict builds ratings. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
onifre responds to me:
quote: And we all know that they would never wander into the realm of hyperbole in order to make their point.
quote: Which they have every right to do and we want them to have that right. It helps us know where we can find the content we're looking for. The downside to that is that it means that sometimes the creators of content who felt assured that their vision was fully supported by the patron is going to have that patron say no. It's been going on for as long as there have been artists and patrons. This was the same fight that happens every single week in every single program. I just finished a production of Arsenic and Old Lace and it is a piece of its time: 1941. We talk about "Japs." There's also a "chink" thrown in for good measure. So there's the question of do we go with what was written or do we recognize that times have changed and try to determine if there's a way to give the same result that doesn't include distracting baggage that comes along through the use of the language. Personally, the "Japs" references make sense. They all come out of the mouth of a character who thinks he's Teddy Roosevelt. And consider that the play is set in September of 1941, temporal consistency indicates that finding Roosevelt making disparaging comments about the Japanese is hardly out of place. But the "chink" line comes completely out of the blue. An aspiring playwright is describing the plot of his play. There is no set up or other contextual justification for it. The only thing to support it is that the play seems to be a hard-boiled detective theme and given the way such novels were written at the time, "chink" in and of itself isn't such a bizarre description. But even so, that word in its context is still nothing more than an insult. In the end, we decided not to do anything. We trusted our audience to understand that this play is 70 years old, is period, and not make a big deal of it. Somebody might be offended, but we were willing to live with that. Know your audience. Note, sometimes you can't win: The Fantasticks has a song where the fathers are trying to get one's son and the other's daughter together and they have hired El Gallo to come and stage a scene where the daughter is in danger of being carried away and the son rescues her and thus, the two can get together. El Gallo describes the various scenarios he can do:
You can get the rape empahtic You can get the rape polite You can get the rape with Indians (A very charming sight) You can the rape on horseback They all say it's new and gay So you see the sort of rape depends on what you pay It depends on what you pay Many theatres can't handle that. Even though the leading dialogue makes it very clear that by "rape," they mean the classical meaning of the word, abduction, rather than the modern version of sexual assault. The longest running musical of all time and most theatres know that their audiences won't be able to survive four-and-a-half minutes where every tenth word is "rape." So when we did it, I was told to sing "raid" and "abduction" in place of "rape." I didn't like it, but I wanted to do the part. Somebody wrote into the newspaper to complain that we were too chicken to do it legit. There will always be somebody who doesn't like the way you try to thread the needle. Somebody is going to come away unhappy. Whose sensibilities are you willing to trample on?
quote: First, it isn't a mosque. Second, what makes you think they haven't considered it? I see you are employing your super power of mind reading again. I'm still fascinated by how you do it and wish you would tell me what it's like when you read other people's minds.
quote: Your comparison is false for it is based upon things that aren't true as well as assuming facts not in evidence. You may personally not care which way it goes, but the question put to you is how do we as a society manage these conflicts? There isn't any way to make everybody happy. Somebody is going to go away without something they want. How do we decide who is going to be sad? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
onifre responds to me:
quote: Nice try. That's my point to you. My question is for you to tell us how we make the decision.
quote: Huh? They're building this community center specifically to offend somebody? This is exactly the same as deliberately displaying an image of Mohammed across the street from it? You are confusing somebody taking offense with somebody giving offense. They are not the same thing.
quote: Right, because Muslims are so dominant in US society. That's why everything is shut down on Fridays and you have to find pork products in the "Ethnic Christian" section of the supermarket. Everybody knows that we elected a Muslim for president because the country is filled with them. We live in a post-Christian world here in the US. They are so put upon and downtrodden.
quote: Who are these "Muslims" you are referring to?
quote: No, let's not. It is extremely important to understand just who it is that made such a request. Not all requests are created equally. The mere existence of such a request is of very little substance and doesn't really help us analyze this particular scenario. Just as we don't care what people who don't have any understanding of climatology have to say about the state of the science with regard to climate change, to harp on what some crazy people have to say is just as ridiculous. By your logic, we should "teach the controversy" in biology class and let "intelligent design" and omphalism and every other cockamamie idea for how the diversity of life came into being suck up all the time we have. [Hint: If that isn't what you meant, then you need to explain how your insistence that we "just acknowledge" it does not lead to insisting that we "just acknowledge" other stupid things that people say.] quote: Who is this "we" you're referring to? I've asked you that more than once. It would be nice if you answered my question.
quote: Now, that isn't exactly true, now, is it? The people who are the most vocal about how they "don't stand on ceremony" and eschew the rituals of etiquette are the ones who scream the loudest the moment they get offended. Everybody follows etiquette. It's how society works. There has to be an understood way for people to relate to each other in order for us to get beyond distrusting everybody and living in a perpetual state of fear that the other person is out to get you. You will note that nobody who is denigrating the protesters have said one word about how they shouldn't be allowed to protest. We've said that they are stupid to do so, yes, but not that their offensive behaviour somehow needs to be suppressed. Oh, we think they "shouldn't" protest, but based upon the merits of their claim, not out of some desire not to be offended. If they go ahead and build the community center there (it is not a mosque...the mosque is a couple blocks away and nobody seems to mind), everybody understands that the people using it are going to have to put up with idiots exercising their right to be idiots in public. It's offensive, but that's the price we pay. Strangely, the other side doesn't seem to understand that. They want to be able to piss and moan and ruin everybody's life simply because they can't handle the prospect of not paying attention to something that doesn't affect them. But I forget...according to you, those are the same thing. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
onifre responds to nwr:
quote:quote: Oh, so you didn't do any homework to allow yourself to be knowledgeable about the subject before you opened your yap. Would it surprise you to learn that the majority of people who actually live in New York City and thus would actually be affected by it support the building of the center? Who are these "many people" you're referring to? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tram law Member (Idle past 4733 days) Posts: 283 From: Weed, California, USA Joined: |
quote: How exactly are people being affected by the center besides just feeling insulted? Does it cause mental harm? Cause people to become unhinged in some way? Are the people of New York suddenly going to turn into a Muslim and worship Allah? Are the skin color and ethnicity going to change somehow?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Right, because Muslims are so dominant in US society. That's why everything is shut down on Fridays ... N.B: for Muslims, Friday is a day when they're obliged to participate in communal rather than individual prayer; but it is not supposed to be kept as a day of rest like the Jewish Sabbath.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Tram law writes:
Yes, I know all of this. The problem is in your Message 149 you say:
Did you read the wiki quote? And I am saying some mosques, not each and every single one of them. For example, The Dome Of The Rock allows limited and restricted access: Tram law writes:
The "only" you put there means that no muslim is allowed to enter the mosque, which would be extremely weird, since a mosque is where muslims normally pray and stuff. I know they sometimes allow non-muslims inside. But surely not only.
In some parts of the world, especially in the Middle East, Mosques only allow non-Muslims in.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tempo Junior Member (Idle past 4972 days) Posts: 2 From: United States Joined: |
1. Islam did not blow up the twin towers, extremist jackasses did.
2. The mosque is not on ground zero, it is 600 ft. away. Ground zero is not being touched. 3. Until I see people protesting the building of a deli or an insurance branch near ground zero, there's nothing more that need be discussed.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Until I see people protesting the building of a deli or an insurance branch near ground zero ... Or the strip clubs and the betting parlor. Hallowed ground, y'know. Well, kinda hallowed. Hallowed-ish. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tram law Member (Idle past 4733 days) Posts: 283 From: Weed, California, USA Joined: |
Yeah, that's a typo. Sorry.
Let's try it like this: Some mosques do not allow non-Muslims in. Is that better?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2979 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
How do we decide who is going to be sad? Well that is the whole point of what I'm saying, and why I gave the South Park example. Either everyone's feelings are taken into account or no one's feelings are taken into account. What I support is that whatever gets decided, gets done fairly. This goes for the image of the prophet, mosques, white people saying nigger, and rape jokes. Either it's all good to do, say and express, or none of it is. I don't care about people's feelings, I care about it being fair game for everyone. - Oni
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Why?
Am I not capable of making decisions on each incident as to whether or not that specific incident is reasonable or not? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024