to Christians in this forum...

My dear sister Desdamona,It is funny that you mention demons because this is the very subject that drew me to this forum, finding a thread in here on this subject. This has proven a blessing to me in that I have met some dear brothers and sisters in Christ and have also the opportunity to pray for those in here who believe not. I pray that it is the will of our Father to give a new heart to those in here that He chooses, to show them the richness of His love and mercy and help them understand how our carnal nature creates a gulf between Him and us, a gulf that has been bridged through the blood of Christ, His ONLY begotten Son. To show them the peace and joy that rests in our hearts when we surrender ourselves to the love of Jesus. Joy unspeakable, faith unshakable. Praise and Glory to our Most High.As far as demons, yes they are very real my dear sister. Before I surrendered myself to the L-rd I didn't really believe in demons in the traditonal or Biblical sense. I believed in the concept of spirits, yet thought most to be benign or benevolent. As you know, once the Holy Spirit comes into us He starts to completely change our world view, even against our own will, purging us of our former beliefs that we cling so desperately to. Removing the scales from our eyes so that we may see the world through His mighty wisdom and Truth. Making us fools so that we may be wise, amen.As I said I used to dabble in occultism and have always been facinated with the paranormal and mystery religions. Since I have come to believe the very real nature of demons and spiritual warfare these subjects are no longer mysterious to me and no longer have a hold on me as they once did.At first I thought this was an over-simplification of a more complex issue, yet one of the great things of the L-rd is that for all His complexities that surpass our understanding, His Truth is essentially simple enough that a child can understand it, and so it is good in His sight.A question for you Desdamona, when you had your out of body experience were you able to look around the room? I had a similar experience years ago after reading 'The Occult' by Colin Wilson. I was laying in bed when I sat up in my spirit and realized that my body was still laying down. A wave of panic and fear came over me and I was then 'slammed' very hard back into my body. When I was sitting up at first and looking around the room, everything had a blue tint to it, as though I was looking through blue tinted glasses. I am just wondering if this was the case with you?I spoke very recently to another sister who had a similar experience prior to her renewal in Christ, yet when she was seperated from her body she was able to see a grotesque demonic figure standing in the room with her. I am glad this wasn't the case with me as I would have had a heart attack right then and there.If you are sensitive to the presence of demons then I would think that this IS a gift of discernment. I pray that our Father teach you to use this gift toward His glory and for the edification of the body of Christ.A question to any one else who happens to read this; I realize that the very notion of demons is a primitive myth to many in our modern industrialized culture, but can anyone think of any other culture at any time in history, at any place in the world that did NOT believe in demons or evil spirits? I can't think of any myself and am curious if anyone else can.Peace and love in the name of Christ,
pinky

Hello Crashfrog,("How would you tell the difference between a flood that flooded everywhere you'd ever been to, and one that flooded the entire world? Remember, no cell phones and no tv.")Smoke signals?? If it was only regional floods, my meager and simple logic would deduce that many people and animals would naturally seek higher or dry ground and in doing so would realize that the flood was only regional.Here is a link in regard to various flood legends, has links to secular sources as well:Flood Legends From Around the WorldPeace
pinky[This message has been edited by pinky, 04-13-2004]

Hello to you Coragyps,Certainly we have come to learn that the earth is not flat, but for all the stories and legends of various cultures through out history, they describe having personal encounters with these entities, even being taught the esoteric sciences by them. This delves into the realm of the spiritual which modern science seems to avoid like the plague.People today, even in our 'civilized' and technologically advanced cultures still report having had experiences with 'other wordly beings' or spirits. In this sense these experiences transcend time and culture. Because science can't explain it does that mean it is dillusional fantasy?As far as out of body experiences I can only speak of my own, knowing full well that I was not stoned or drunk, nor deprived of sleep or food. I was fully sober, fully awake and fully freaked out!!!

Howdy Crashfrog,In response to some things you said (forgive me that I don't know how to quote properly in this forum):("What if it flooded everywhere you could see from the mountain?")Again in my meager logic, if the floods were only regional it would be likely that some would escape the flooded region, whether it be mountain top or a distant land, proving to them that the flood was only regional.If you look at the various flood legends from around the world, they do vary in specific details, yet most claiming that the world was flooded, yet a family was spared which then repopulated the earth.I understand that for many in here there is a desire to have sources outside of the Bible to confirm the testimony in scripture. Here we have many sources from around the world that do corroborate the idea of a global flood. I don't expect that this alone will turn one into a believer, but I would hope that it would at least give cause for objective consideration, even for fleeting a moment if nothing else.("Your experiences are interesting but how would you determine that they were not dreams?")If you are referring to the out of body experience, I'm confident I wasn't dreaming because I wasn't asleep when this happened. I was laying in bed and reflecting on the book I had just finished reading. I have never experienced anything remotely like this at any other time in my life. Even when I used to drink and smoke pot I never had any experiences with hallucinations.I fully understand and respect any skepticism in regard to this, I certainly don't expect you to believe based on my say so, but I know it was real and it was terrifying and I am glad it never happened again.("How would you distinguish between someone possessed by a demon and someone just acting like it?")Personally I am leary of determining demon possession of another, nor do I know anyone who I believe to be demon possessed (although I do have an aunt who is very wicked and sometimes makes me wonder ).When a Demon possesses a human host it is not necessarily on a continuous basis, the human is a vessel in which the demon/s can come and go. When occupying a human host symptoms can include things like supernatural strength, the ability to speak in a foriegn language unknown to the host or speak with great knowlegde of subjects unkown to the host. Speaking in a strange voice, for instance a female host who when possessed speaks in a man's voice or a male host who speaks in a child's voice. Self mutilation or a perverse desire to inflict violence on loved ones, even a desire to kill them. Any of these symptoms will most likely be accompanied by blasphemy agianst G-d, Jesus and the Bible (although this in itself wouldn't determine possession).I recall a little while ago I was lurking in an occult forum and a 16 year old girl posted about an experience she had that really frightened her and she didn't understand what had happened. She, her sister, cousin and friends were playing with a ouija board when all of a sudden her sister and cousin began to speak in a deep male voice saying that they were going to kill each other and started fighting. Apparently their faces became very pale and contorted, evil looking and frothing at the mouth. Her sister then broke a mirror and started slashing herself, then she dropped to the floor and curled up in a ball. The rest of the group tried to pick her up to take her to the washroom and clean her up but they could not move her. She said it was if her sister weighed a ton. Soon after both girls came to their senses and could not remember what had happened.Obviously I wasn't there to determine if this really happened, but I do think she was sincere and very, very scared. She did not identify it as demon possession, she really didn't know what the cause was and was looking for answers. Of course I think it was classic demon possesion.Personally I would not determine a person to be demon possessed based on an illness, although it could be the cause of an illness, I would be leary to make this assumption based on illness alone. There is also demon oppression which is not to the extreme where a demon can indwell it's host, but can have influence over thoughts, feelings, and health, also causing depression and various obsessions with destructive behavior.There are personal testimonies that you can find on the net of people who have had experiences with possession. They describe things like audible voices that compell them to hurt or even kill pets and loved ones. These voices seem to override their own will and if they resist they experience things like a painful ringing or pressure in their head.I'm sure you are aware of the many serial killers who claim that a voice inside them told them to kill. Some wrongfully thinking it was the voice of G-d, others acknowledgeing it to be the voice of a demon or Satan himself. It is interesting to note that many of the most well known serial killers have had some association with satanism.Sorry if I rambled a bit there.May the L-rd have mercy and reveal Himself to you Crashfrog, you are in my prayers,
carolyn

("I think you misunderstand. If it flooded everywhere you could see from the mountian top, and then you were telling the story to your kids, don't you think you'd describe it as flooding the entire world?")I see your point, but... what then would be the origin of these flood legends describing the necessity to build a type of boat, taking animals and a few people who then repopulated the earth when the flood waters receded? What would be the necessity of this if the floods were regional?("Maybe you've never played "telephone" so you don't understand how stories can change in the absence of the written word?")Yup, I have played telephone and understand how stories can change through oral exchange. This is why I believe that many of the oral traditions of a great flood vary in detail, the under lying theme being relatively consistent. This is also why I believe G-d has a WRITTEN word, so that His Truth can be passed down through generations unadulterated.("And it doesn't explain why the only cultures with flood legends are the ones who live where it floods.")I'm wondering if you have any more information in regard to this, a good link(s) that I can read??("How do you know you weren't?")I'm assuming that you are asking how I know I wasn't dreaming?? Well, how do you know you are not dreaming right now as you read this? I may not be a brainiac at the best of times, but I like to think I know the difference between being awake and being asleep, LOL. I don't expect that I will somehow convince you to percieve the situation as I do, I simply shared an experience that I had and you are free to take it as you wish .I also appreciate that you are empathetic to the fact that it was a scary experience, likewise I share my empathy for your 'hag-ridden' experience. At the same token I would ask how you know YOU weren't dreaming?("Honestly I'm not hearing anything that it wouldn't be safer to treat with psychiatric pharmacology.")What if psychiatric pharmacology produces no effective results, but an exorcism in the name of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit does?Peace to you Crashfrog
carolynPS- How do you properly quote with the format of this forum?

'...a huge collection of evidence'?? Really, or was it more like a huge collection of 'theories'?Charles Darwin: "I am quite conscious that my speculations run quite beyond the bounds of true science." (from a letter to Asa Gray, Harvard biology professor, cited in _Charles Darwin and the Problem of Creation_, N.C. Gillespie, p.2)"Not one change of species into another is on record ... we cannot prove that a single species has been changed." (Charles Darwin, My Life & Letters)"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." (Charles Darwin, Origin of Species, chapter "Difficulties")"As by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? The number of intermediate links between all living and extinct species must have been inconceivably great!" (Charles Darwin) H. Lipson, physicist: "In fact, evolution became in a sense a scientific religion; almost all scientists have accepted it and many are prepared to 'bend' their observations to fit in with it.... To my mind, the theory does not stand up at all... I know that [considering creation theory] is anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it." ("A Physicist Looks at Evolution", _Physics Bulletin_, 1980, p.138)Art Battson, professor, University of CA - Berkley: "We must bear in mind that just because neo-Darwinian evolution is the most plausible naturalistic explanation of origins, we should not assume that it is necessarily true.... In retrospect, it seems as though Darwinists have been less concerned with the scientific question of accurately explaining the empirical data of natural history, and more concerned with the religious or philosophical question of explaining the design found in nature without a designer. Darwin's general theory of evolution may, in the final analysis, be little more than an unwarranted extrapolation from microevolution based more upon philosophy than fact. The problem is that Darwinism continues to distort natural science." ("Facts, Fossils, and Philosophy", 17 May 1997)G.A. Kerkut, biochemistry professor at the University of Southampton: "The philosophy of evolution is based upon assumptions that cannot be scientifically verified... Whatever evidence can be assembled for evolution is both limited and circumstantial in nature." (cited in _Biology_, Keith Graham et al, p.363)Arthur Keith: "Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation which is unthinkable." (cited in _Origins?_, BG Ranganathan, p.22)Francis Crick, Nobel Prize recipient for discovery of DNA structure: "Every time I write a paper on the origin of life, I determine I will never write another one, because there is too much speculation running after too few facts." (_Life Itself_, p.153)"There are only two possibilities as to how life arose. One is spontaneous generation arising to evolution; the other is a supernatural creative act of God. There is no third possibility. Spontaneous generation, that life arose from non-living matter was scientifically disproved 120 years ago by Louis Pasture and others. That leaves us with the only possible conclusion that life arose as a supernatural creative act of God." .... "I will not accept that philosophically because I do not want to believe in God therefore, I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible; spontaneous generation arising to evolution." (Dr. George Wall professor emeritus of biology at Harvard University. Nobel Prize winner in biology. From an article in Scientific America)"Once we see, however, that the probability of life originating at random is so utterly minuscule as to make it absurd, it becomes sensible to think that the favourable properties of physics on which life depends are in every respect deliberate....It is therefore almost inevitable that our own measure of intelligence must reflect ...higher intelligences...even to the limit of God...such a theory is so obvious that one wonders why it is not widely accepted as being self-evident. The reasons are psychological rather than scientific." (Sir Fred Hoyle, well-known British mathematician, astronomer and cosmologist) If it can't be explained by science does that mean that it is non existent? I'm happy you had a good laugh if nothing else .http://transitofvenus.auckland.ac.nz/...ations/fmrs_aod.htmlhttp://freemasonry.bcy.ca/Writings/liberal/science.htmlHere's a book you may be interested in reading:
Amazon.comWebsite of Freemason Robert Lomas
"...covers Robert's latest research on the role of Freemason Sir Robert Moray in the creation of what is probably the most important scientific society in the world, the Royal Society of London."
The Royal SocietyErasmus Darwin (grandfather of Charles Darwin) freemason and member of Royal Society
http://www.freemasonrytoday.com/issue9-eye.shtmlJan 24, 1839 Charles Darwin elected member of Royal Society
Dr Robert A. Hatch - University of Florida3 of Darwin's children also members of Royal Society
http://www.aboutdarwin.com/darwin/Children.htmlANCIENT SYMBOLS IN MODERN MEDICINE: BUT WHY?
"Quoted from this article: "John Robinson explains in his popular book on Freemasonry: "When Freemasonry came public in 1717 ... it appeared that the Royal Society was virtually a Masonic subsidiary, with almost every member and every founding member of the Royal Society a Freemason."[14] An article in the leading Masonic magazine, Freemasonry Today, echoes this and mentions that "many masons were also members of the Royal Society".[15] The Royal Society remains associated with British Freemasonry today."
The Insider | Ancient symbols in modern medicine: why?National Academies of Sciences and their 'temple of science'. What's up with all the pagan/masonic symbolism?The Main Foyer and the Great Hall (let it be noted that all Masonic Temples have a 'great hall')
"The symbol of the Royal Society of London, founded in 1660, is over the west galley;...."
http://www4.nas.edu/...(#1)NAS Building--The Wings
"A score of industries and foundations, including Ford and Rockefeller, contributed to the Academy Centennial Building Fund, providing funds for the east wing and some support for the construction of the auditorium."
http://www4.nas.edu/...(#2)
{Shortened display form of previous 2 links, to restore page width to normal - Adminnemooseus}In regard to Prometheus represented in this 'temple of science', the following quote is from Michael Aquino of US Military Intelligence, former member of the Church of Satan and founder of the Temple of Set:...This is Nyarlathotep, otherwise Set, otherwise Lucifer/Satan, otherwise Prometheus, otherwise Thoth, who has created the power of perspective and the independent psyche of judgment. Here "knowledge" becomes possible...."
Commentary on the Seal of the Nine Angles http://www.mercola.com/2001/mar/7/vaccine_ingredients.htmWhat an amazing coincidence that Edward Jenner was a Freemason:
Page not found - Grand Lodge of PennsylvaniaFor anyone who may be interested the following is a really good link of the subject of Freemasonry, tons and tons of info and yes it is an anti-masonic source:
Freemasonry Watch - Is the Devil in the details? | Freemasons News and Freemason Enlightenment Yes Virginia, there are such things as conspiracies, global in scope and wicked in intent."The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not
behind the scenes." --Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli of England, in 1844."Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." - Woodrow Wilson"David Rockefeller is the most conspicuous representative today of the ruling class, a multinational fraternity of men who shape the global economy and manage the flow of its capital. Rockefeller was born to it, and he has made the most of it. But what some critics see as a vast international conspiracy, he considers a circumstance of life and justanother day's work... In the world of David Rockefeller it's hard to tell where business ends and politics begins" . Bill MoyersWe shall have World Government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether
World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent." -- Statement made before the
United States Senate on Feb. 7, 1950 by James Paul Warburg"The real rulers in Washington are invisible and exercise their power from behind the
scenes."-- Justice Felix Frankfurter, U.S. Supreme Court."I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insideous forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthurThe real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government of the U.S. since the days of Andrew Jackson."-- U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt in a letter written Nov. 21, 1933 to Colonel E. Mandell House."The real menace of our Republic is the invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls
its slimy legs over our cities, states and nation."-- Mayor (1918-1925) John F. Hylan of New York."The Trilateral Commission is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the
commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States.
The Trilateral Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate
the four centers of power--Political, Monetary, Intellectual, and Ecclesiastical."--U.S. Senator
Barry Goldwater from his 1964 book "No Apologies"A BIG Thank you to Brian for the info on 'quoting'.[This message has been edited by pinky, 04-16-2004][This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 04-16-2004]

Just trying to make the point that Darwin didn't seem entirely confident in his 'huge collection of evidence'.

I will concede that it wasn't the full context of the quote after reading the link that Coragyps provided. If you mean a liar in the context of omitting the rest to the quote I will give you that.Full quote, in proper context:"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of Spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei ["the voice of the people ], as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certain the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, should not be considered as subversive of the theory."My apologies, it wasn't my intent to be deceptive in any way.

So scientists have a different definition of 'fact' and 'theory' than what the common folk do?

As far as 'paraniod' conspiracy theories, I would argue that there is far more 'evidence' to support many of them than what may appear at a surface glance. Personally I find it an interesting subject, if you do not then I will not press the issue with you any further.Peace to you Schrafinator
pinky

Yup, I totally agree, I think this thread has meandered off topic enough as it is. Does 'evidence' have a different meaning to scientists also . Just thought I should ask.

Some 'theories' perhaps, but not all. I think it does require looking at the 'evidence' collectively, which forms a definite pattern, consistently ties into the same elite group of people and has an occult undercurrent. But like Ned said, that is a subject for it's own thread. And is still alive today, and can be traced directly to many modern and globally influential organizations.

That would probably be a good idea, but I don't know that I will have the time to start one today. I have little rugrats to chase around, supper to cook and my husband needs to use the computer right now.Till later...
carolyn

First of all the so called evidence that I offered was nothing near being in it's entirety, not even close, it was but the smallest fraction of a bigger picture. Personally I would not take those links in and of themselves as proof either. I could post hundreds and hundreds of links to build the more complete picture, from masonic and secular sources themselves. The few links that I did provide, I was hoping to be a starting point to build on, but before I can even hope to get started the nay sayers have made their verdict without even hearing the case. So be it.

Why am I unable to post a new topic?I keep getting Sorry, but you are not authorized to post a new topic in this particular forum. Only moderators, administrators, and authorized users may post new topics in this forum.