to Christians in this forum...

I came across this forum from doing a search on demons that led me to a thread here. I have since been reading through many of the discussions in this forum.I would like to express my appreciation for my fellow brothers and sister in Christ who stand steadfast in their faith, even when challenged by the wisdom of men. Especially when I see that some of the arguments for evolution presented here are among some of the best I have read.My question to fellow believers in this forum is this; Why do you debate and try to prove G-d with worldly knowledge, i.e. science? I do not mean for that to sound condescending but ask in sincerity. I am just curious if some percieve this as a type of witnessing, with the hope that you will spark some faith in some of the non-believers here? I can understand if this is the case, because I understand that once we recieve the knowledge of Christ it is our hearts desire for others to also share in the joy of knowing Him and recieve salvation.Do we as humans have the power to reveal G-d to another? Especially using the wisdom of men? Or is it only G-d, through the power of the Holy Spirit, that can reveal Himself to us?I have only been a believer for a little over 2 years. It wasn't until I softened my heart and believed in Him and chose to seek His face that He allowed me to know Him.Prior to my salvation I could not understand how a person could have a close, personal relationship with a deity that we cannot see or touch in a physical sense. To me the very notion of this was ridiculous. The only way to understand the very real truth of this is to experince it. To feel the Holy Spirit living in you, to see His power working in your life, transforming you in ways you never thought possible, answering prayers and helping us to understand His wisdom, which is above the wisdom of all men. How can we prove these things with science?1 Corinthians 2
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.1 Corinthians 1
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:Proverbs 29
9 If a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest.Proverbs 15
12 A scorner loveth not one that reproveth him: neither will he go unto the wise.Jude 1
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.Praise and Glory to The Most High and His Blessed Son, Jesus Christ, King over all principalities and powers.

Hello Sidelined, thank you for your welcome to the forum. I see that you are from Edmonton, I was born and raised in Edmonton and as of 2 years ago moved to Wildwood. So we are neighbors .Please don't apologize for butting in, your response is more than welcome.quote from you
"What is wrong with debating science? Is it because you believe it is ,by being worldly,somehow evil?"I have no problem with debating science, I am just curious if some of my beloved brothers and sisters think it possible to prove G-d with science. I have tried this approach myself and have found that it leads to a never ending and exhausting debate. A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.Also when I say 'worldly' wisdom, I mean wisdom that is not grounded in G-d's Truth. As one who believes in G-d, I obviously believe His wisdom to be above all that of men.I don't think all science is bad, however I don't think it infallable or inerrant. There have been many things established as scientific fact, later to be revised or disproven all together as new discoveries are made. I choose to put my faith in the wisdom of G-d (which I believe is inerrant) rather than the wisdom of men.Peace,
Carolyn (yup, I'm a gurl)

Hello Willowtree, peace and love be unto you in the blessed name of Christ.Quote from Willowtree:
"We try to evidence God BECAUSE God in His word says He can be deduced from what is seen/made."I know that and you know that, but how do we convince someone of that when they simply do not want to see it? How do we use the wisdom of men to show things that are discerned by the spirit? I have tried this course myself and it always ends up in a stale mate. I am not trying to be critical of the efforts of our brethren that use science to show the glory of the L-rd, I fully appreciate the scientific information that has been shared in this regard. I apologize if in any way my wording came across as critical, this was not my intention. It is more from my own frustration that I have encountered in trying to do the same.I ache in my heart for others to know the richness of His wisdom and mercy, as we have been blessed to know. But there are some people who are very intelligent in a human regard, that are very proud of their own intelligence and in their own human understanding that they are not willing to see the simplicity that is in the Truth of G-d and Christ. So we try to meet them on their terms, and explain G-d through 'intellect' when in fact we need to become as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. To humble our own human understanding that we are predispostioned to take great pride in. Did not Lucifer rebel in the pride of his own wisdom?It just seems to me that when we try to use science to reveal G-d to one who is astute in the matters of science, it only serves to inspire them to prove their own intellect rather than seek G-dly wisdom through humility.Quote from Willowtree:
"Pinky why do you spell God...."G-d" ?"Mainly because 'god' and 'lord' can be generic terms that many others apply to their god. Just as some prefer to use YHWH or Yeshua and other sacred names. I don't claim that this somehow makes me more pious or closer to Him, just out of a personal reverence.May you be richly blessed in all that our Father bestows upon us in His perfect love.In the Blessed Name of Christ,
carolyn

Hello my dear brother Buzsaw. The blessings of the L-rd be unto you this day.Quote from Buzsaw:
"As most are aware, I use historical and archeological evidence to argue for bonafide fulfillment of Biblical prophecy and the Biblical historical record here in this forum to contend for evidence of the supernatural and for substantiating the credibility of the Biblical record. This at least will leave the skeptic with no excuse in the final judgement by claiming there was no evidence given by God."I see your point brother, and I pray the L-rd use you as His vessel to touch a heart that has been hardened by the ways of the world. I also have been fed by much of what you, Stephen ben Yeshua and others have shared here, and I thank you whole heartedly.Blessing in the name of the L-rd
carolyn1 Corinthians 1
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that NOT MANY WISE MEN AFTER THE FLESH, not many mighty, not many noble, ARE CALLED.Some are simply not called.

oops, I double posteddelete [This message has been edited by pinky, 03-31-2004]

Hello sister Shyangel,Thank you for your welcome to the forum.Yes I noticed there aren't too many sisters here . I look forward to reading some of your posts.In the Blessed Name of Jesus
your sister
carolyn

Howdy brother Mike,Have to say that I appreciate your humor that I've seen in some of your posts.Quote from Mike the Wiz:
"I do however believe that if you want to find evidence of a Creator you will, and if you don't you won't."Yup, I agree completely. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.1 Corinthians 2
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.Peace and Love in Jesus' Name
pinky

Mike the Wiz quote:
"One thing though, do you believe then, in evolution or creation or doesn't it bother you much?
How about the Old Testament - do you believe in it literally?"I believe in creation and I do believe literally in the OT. I do believe that scripture, OT and NT, is inspired by G-d and that Jesus IS the Word in the flesh.Prior to becoming Christian I did not believe the Bible to be literal at all, however the Holy Spirit has convicted me in my heart, and through my studies, that it is. I used to hold similar views as some non-believers in here, perhaps not as militant though , however the Holy Spirit has been working to shed my world views and help me to understand from G-d's perspective (as best as my finite human mind can understand).If someone thinks me a fool for believing what I do, so be it.1 Corinthians 3:18
Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.2 Corinthians 11:19
For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.Mike the Wiz quote:
"It's fantastic that you provide me with this scripture, I read it and it was significant to my situation in my life, (that part I read) - but I couldn't remember it.....and now you unwittingly provide chapter and verse. - thanks. It seems that the spirit does searcheth all things."Indeed the Spirit does searcheth all things, there are no coincidences with G-d. I encourage you my dear brother, to stand steadfast in your faith and patiently wait for the day when our Father will once and for all settle the debate amongst men, who really is the Most High. All praise and glory to the Creator of all.May you be blessed this day in the Name of Jesus,
carolyn

Josiah quote:"Nothing will get you prepared for witnessing like these forums that is a fact."Yup, I can see that. It's a tough crowd no question. However I don't think I'm as equipped as some other believers here to debate using science. My understanding is stronger in the acient esoteric religions and occultism.It is my pleasure to meet my brothers and sisters in here, how I love my family in Christ. I love also the cynics in here and I how I wish they could know the power of Jesus, the real Jesus, not the 'church' Jesus.In Jesus' Name
pinky

Mr Jack quote:
"What is this 'G-d' rather than God and 'L-rd' rather than Lord stuff about?"Nothing of major importance. 'God' can be generic as can 'lord', some choose to use sacred names for this reason, I type G-d and L-rd. Maybe it's silly, yes, He knows of whom I speak. It's more a personal reverence thing than anything.Peace
pinky

schrafinator quote:"Do you then also believe that the hundreds of thousands of scientists over several centuries who's findings contradict a literal reading of the OT are all completely deluded, or perhaps lying?"??"Hundreds of thousands of scientists"?? I'm not too sure about that number, but there are many scientists who's findings do in fact support the Biblical account of history, so I guess it boils down to which scientists we choose to believe.I also don't understand this mantra that if I believe the literal translation of the OT I somehow reject all science???? I do believe that some science is good and sound, but not all. I do believe that there are elements within the scientific community that are fraternal and self serving, which contribute more to social engineering than educating the masses in truth.The world is full of lies, disinformation and propaganda. (Modern day churches are no exception). I choose the wisdom of G-d, through His Word and the power of the Holy Spirit, to help sort through this chaotic web. I do NOT put my faith in men for understanding, I put my faith in the Creator.I have NEVER been a fan of modern medicine in the context of pharmaceuticals. The pharmaceutical industry being a profit driven close cousin of the petroleum industry.Since becoming Christian I have found faithful prayer to be far more effective than medication in healing certain ailments.I do not think that every time a person gets sick that they are demon possessed and require an exorcism, LOL, nor do I think such a notion is supported by scripture.peace
pinky

Hello Hitchy and thank you for your welcome to the forum.You ask what changed my mind, what caused me to believe in the Bible after so many years of not believing. Well that has the potential to be a long story . However since you ask I will try to explain in brief (at least I will try to be brief, no promises).The days following immediately after 9/11 caused me to notice some inconsistencies in the corporate media coverage of this horrific tragedy. Also being that my husband is a retired military cop, he found the official 'investigation' at this time to fall far from normal investigative protocol. In other words, it didn't pass the smell test. This caused me to do some of my own research through more independent sources. This was the first time I had asked G-d to show me the truth, and I now believe that He was faithful to answer.At first it was my intention to understand what was going on from a geo-political perspective, the last thing I was interested in was a 'religious' perspective, yet the more I dug into it, the more I began to realize that it essentially does boil down to 'religion'.This eventually led me to look more closely at Bible prophecy and studying the Bible in general, which led me to believe that Jesus is everything He claims to be. Since accepting Him as my savior and knowing Him through the Holy Spirit that now lives in me, I have been blessed to know the very real power of Christ.(One thing I would like to say in regard to Bible prophecies is that many OT prophecies are dual in nature, meaning that they were fulfilled already but will also have a second and COMPLETE fulfillment in the 'last days'. Many of these prophecies, already fulfilled, FORESHADOW a future and COMPLETE fulfillment. One might notice in OT prophecies that in the middle they jump ahead to an 'end time' context, implying that they will have a second fulfillment. Looking at all the prophecies collectively and cross referencing them gives a fuller picture of this.)Right now there is a consolidation of global power in the hands of a very small group of the richest and most powerful people in the world, namely the global banking families, and their influence trickles down into virtually every 'established' institution. History has proven that when so much power rests in the hands of a small elite class it is NEVER a good thing for the freedom and prosperity of the common masses. Bible prophecy foretells that in the last days there will be a final and global consolidation of this power in the form of a global government,
global monetary system and global religion (kingdom of the anti-Christ), under the pretense of 'peace and prosperity' for all mankind. This is a false peace that is essentially the result of effective social engineering by means of the Hegelian Dialect. This is unfolding before our very eyes.There is really so much that can be said on this subject that I won't attempt to get too much into it here. I don't know that this forum is the proper place to do so. But to give a general idea I will say this, do a google search of 'Rockefellers + science' to get a 'surface' idea of how much influence this family has in the scientific community, then do a search of 'rockefeller' and any of the following: politics, education, medicine, media, banking and anything else you can think of.If you are at all interested there is an online book that you can read that digs beneath the surface of the Rockefeller empire and reveals a very interesting picture (this is only one elite family portrait):(snip)**In previous chapters we have seen that the Rockefellers exercise tremendous leverage over business, banking, and the economy. In the last chapter we showed how the family has used that money to set themselves up in the charity business, and then used their influence through their giveaways to guide education, religion, and the media-and therefore public opinion-along the proper course. Proper for the Rockefellers, that isThe perfect situation, from the Rockefellers' point of view, is to combine their economic muscle and their political oomph so that one hand washes the other. They have mastered to a frightening degree the art of using economic power to build political power which enhances economic power even further, and so on, ad infinitum.We have seen that the Rockefellers have spent generations developing an economic consortium that is the sleekest, smoothest, and most powerful combine on earth. The incredibly powerful political complex the Rockefellers have put together makes their economic activities look like the naive simplicity of a backwoods general store, and consists of organizations which are thoroughly interlocked with and financed by the House of Rockefeller.Nelson Rockefeller, the unelected Vice President of the United States, is a leader in the campaign to submerge American sovereignty in a World Superstate. Long-time internationalist Alan Cranston (right) is also an avid promoter of World Government, 'in violation of his oath of office as a US Senator.**Database ErrorI'll just leave it at that for now.Peace
pinky

Thanks for that info Loudmouth, every little bit helps The point I was trying to make is that if the Rockefellers have their name or money invested in something, you can pretty much guarantee that they have some influence there. I don't think science would be an exception. In all honesty I have not done any real research as to how deep their influence is in the scientific community, I am now inspired to do so.I think the link I provided in my last post in regard to the Rockefelller empire is an interesting read to say the least, and gives some idea how the far their influence reaches. It is a book that was written in 1974? and still relevent to what going on in the world today.peace
pinky[This message has been edited by pinky, 04-03-2004]

Hello Schrafinator,Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I've had family visiting this week and haven't even had time to look at my computer.I am not a scientist and don't know that I am qualified to debate the finer points, I only have my personal opinions and my faith.Schraf quote:
("Why not? More or less formalized science has been around for the last 200 years or so. Even if there was only 1000 scientists a year, that's 200,000 scientists right there.")Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure someone will) but at the dawn of our modern science era (approx 200 years ago) didn't most scientists believe in creation? Wasn't it after Darwin's 'origin of species' that an alternative to creation started to permeate the scientific community? When Darwinism first made it's appearance didn't it take some time to pick up momentum and support in the feild of science?Also in regard to your quote from Newsweek, did you know that Newsweek is owned by the Rockefellers? What a coincidence .("Well, if you believe that the genesis account of creation and the flood story are literally true, you have to reject a great deal of Physics, Cosmology, Geology, Biology, Archaeology, Genetics, Archaeology, etc.")In my very unprofessional opinion I don't think science is at such odds with the Bible as what may be promoted by some. Scientists who hold an atheistic world view (which seems to be the majority) are biased agianst the notion of an intelligent designer/creator and I would expect that their evidence would bend to fit this world view. Just as an athiest would expect a Bible believing scientist to bend their evidence to support thier beliefs. As a Christian I am skeptical of so called evidence being touted by a predominatly athiest community because I think they are overlooking/ignoring a very important aspect of our human existence, which is spirituality.Science is not complete and without error, theories are continuously being expanded upon and some outright rejected as new discoveries are made. There are some things that science simply can't explain, such as aspects of the supernatural, so this realm is mostly ignored by modern science. I don't think they are looking at the whole picture and leaving a vaccum that is being filled by bogus science like ufology and the ilk.As far as the flood is concerned, there are allegedly over 260 ancient cultures that have an oral tradition of a great flood, and the ancient Sumerian cunifrom tablets that predate the Bible, yet give a testimony of the great flood that is strikingly similar to the story of Noah.I also find it very interesting that we rave about these ancient cultures and their vast ESOTERIC understanding of sacred geometry, engineering, mathematics and astronomy, yet at the same time we are expected to believe that they were so ignorant that they couldn't discern the difference between a global flood and a regional flood.Some links that I found interesting in regard to the flood and creation, I'm sure many of the points expressed here have been debated in other areas of this forum:http://www.godspointofview.com/...answers/flood_geology.htmlhttp://www.bible.ca/tracks/fossil-record.htmThe Geological Columnhttp://www.unmaskingevolution.com/18-flood.htmhttp://www.evolutiondeceit.com/Choice Quotes from Scientists on Evolution 404 Not Found ("Could you be more specific? Can you produce any specific evidence to support your claim that some scientists are not interested in firguring out naturalistic explanations for natural phenomena but in "social engineering"?")In regard to the fraternal aspect that I spoke of, have you ever heard of the Freemasons? Perhaps the most powerful fraternal network on the planet, and social engineering is definately their forte. Darwin was said to have been a Mason. This in itself is a vast subject that deserves it's own thread. Give me some time and I will see what I can put together.("Let's say you work for NASA, and you and your team are supposed to design the next generation space craft.
Can you show me how the wisdom of god and the bible will help you with your design?")LOL, I don't think NASA would be the best example to use. Prior to becoming Christian I used to dabble in occultism, it was from this background that I came to realize the OBSESSION that the 'elites' have with the occult. NASA is a very occult/masonic organization. I'll include more information about this in the follow up thread that I already mentioned in regard to the freemasons.(" Do you reject the idea of vaccinations?")Given the fact that vaccinations are a product of the pharmecuetical complex, and after reading what is actually in them, I would say yes I do reject the idea of vaccinations. I think they are a trojan horse that essentially compromises our natural immune system and could POSSIBLY be related to our modern cancers.The webmasterAs far as praying for certain ailments, I have not yet prayed for someone who was battling a life threatening disease. However I have prayed over my children and loved ones who have suffered from common ailments such as flu, fever, cold.One example that comes to mind is when my 2 year old son came down with the flu last November. He had a temperature of 102.3. I did not give him ANY medication. While he was sleeping I put my hands on him and prayed for Jesus to heal him. Within a couple of minutes of saying this prayer I actually felt his fever leave him. I felt his fever cool off right under my hand, gone, completely. When he woke up it was as if he was never sick to begin with. It was an amazing experience and one that I will cherish forever.And as far a demonic possession, I will not specualte as to which ailments are caused by demonic possession. There are many other factors involved in determining if someone is demon possessed.Schrafinator you certainly asked alot of questions in one post, questions that require many posts to fully explain a persons position, also questions that I can forsee resulting in a never ending debate of which neither of us are likely to change our beliefs.Peace
pinky[This message has been edited by pinky, 04-12-2004]

Hello Desdamona, peace and love in the blessed Name of Christ.I certainly understand your frustration when trying to explain G-d to those who simply choose not to believe. It can also be painful to hear others blaspheme His Holy Name because of their disbelief, yet we are to expect this, especially in these 'last days' and it's only going to get worse as I'm sure you already know.Jude 1
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.Yet the power of the Holy Spirit can turn the most hardened heart toward Him if He chooses. Our prayers can do much in this regard, perhaps even more than our earnest attempts to prove His existence through our own human understanding. This isn't to say that our testimony is without merit because one must hear before they believe.May you be richly blessed Desdamona
In the Love of Jesus Christ
pinky