Does evidence of transitional forms exist ? (Hominid and other)

As requested by redstang281:
"Post some transitional fossil [sic] on here in new threads. That way the local creationists can research and rebuttle."I've seen this topic on MBs before that went no where because the two sides did not agree upon what constitutes a 'transitional form'.
So allow me to pre-emptively state that 'transitional forms' ARE NOT:
partially formed organisms ( one wing & one reptilian claw of a reptile halfway to becoming a bird ). Evidence of such would actually weigh against the ToE.So what would we look for ?
How about evidence of an organism possessing traits similar to two (or more) other species. My first example will possess some similarity to modern humans (but obviously not Homo sapien) and less derived traits of a chimpanzee (but obviously not Pan Troglodyte) - our nearest living relative, genetically speaking. Notice this isn't a fragmentary specimen that leaves doubt as to whether it is a knuckle-walking ape or a bipedal hominid.
There is little doubt that this specimen shares quite a bit of our own physiology - from the neck down (though there are still subtle but distinct differences there too).The fossil above was discovered in Kenya, 1984; has been widely studied and documented.Now, so you don't conclude this is some freak individual who does not represent a population but a deformed modern human, consider these discoveries from former Soviet Georgia in 2000: Though these discoveries have not been scrutinized to the same extent as the Turkana Boy specimen, they DO posses a clear resemblence in shape, size and general morphology. ( I won't delve into the radio-metric dating which suggests ALL these individuals were comtemporaries. That I'll defer to another time and thread- we're only discussing morphology here.)So, how do Young Earth Creationists explain this evidence ?
The ToE suggests these are specimens of a species of 'transitional forms' some where between (and possessing traits of) Modern Humans and Modern Chimpanzees (though much closer to humans).
Small changes, accumulated over thousands of generations, lead to newer species - though not necessarily the demise of the older species.How does the Bible account for this evidence ?I've provided a case for Transitional Forms in human evolution. There are also reams of evidence supporting the evolution of organisms other than Hominids, such as Trees, flowering plants, Trilobytes, Horses, Whales, Insects, Carnivores - even Dinosaurs.I'll leave it to someone else here to elaborate on these. They probably make a stroger case for evolution than simply studying Hominids , but I am less familar with that evidence.Kind Regards,Jeff------------------

Excuse me redstang281,But were your words just idle chatter when you requested we post evidence for transitionals so that the YECies could "research and rebut" ?Can we conclude that the Young Earth Creation model is BUST ? and completely incapable of explaining the evidence presented here ?
...and the YECies are overjoyed that this embarrassing question has rolled off the page ...from their neglect ?Well Alrighty, then !!Creationism has conceded defeat. This anti-Intellectual excercise has ended with victory to science !!next.

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[This message has been edited by Jeff, 02-18-2002]

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"How do you know this is your response without seeing the evidence?"
--I don't know that this would be my response exactly, I am asking for the examples so we can come to that. I was stating that this is one of the problems that I have seen argued with some transitionals.

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TrueCreation,Please examine the very first post, which established this thread.
The evidence HAS been posted. Once you have viewed the images I took the trouble to post, please tell us what you see, perhaps a brief analysis. No one expects you to post a dissertation on these fossils - just look at them and tell us how it compares to known, modern organisms.(surreal transition to a Law & Order episode)Jack McCoy: -"Your Honor, permission to treat the witness as hostile."
Judge: - You may proceed.Is Turkana-boy, the specimen I posted a:a.) fully modern human?
b.) fully modern chimpanzee?
c.) fully modern Suzuki Quad Runner ATV?
d.) fully modern Salsa recipe?...and...perhaps a few comments as to why you chose your response.No scientific authentication is required. I am soliciting your opinion.Kind Regards,jeff

Any response from the gallery ?What in the heck are these things we've posted here ?
Does ANYONE in the Creationist camp have an answer ?How will we EVER explain them ?Kind Regards,jeff

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Originally posted by Punisher:

If a fish dwelling creature somehow developed a set of lungs over a long period of time; wouldn't he drown at some stage between a lack of gills and the prescence of lungs?

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There are current organisms that demonstrate this transition, and it occurs not in the oceans but in fresh water streams where the water is shallow (compared to the ocean) and there are soil banks on either side. The organism locomotes between the two environments — as the lung fish does when its pond evaporates. It has the opportunity to cross land to the nearest water body.
It encounters a lot of risk when doing this, but a steelhead bass would die outright when the first pond dried up. [b] [QUOTE] Punisher:
If a rat starting growing wings from his front forelimbs; wouldn't he quickly be eaten or starve because of his inability to move with elongated yet useless front limbs/wings?
My examples are simplified, I know.
[/b][/QUOTE]Observe the ‘Flying’ squirrel. It doesn’t really fly, it glides from higher branches to lower branches by extending the thin layer of skin between its fore and hind limbs. It could more accurately be called the ‘gliding’ squirrel. This gliding adaptation must have given it more benefit than liability, otherwise it would go extinct and we would rely on fossil evidence to even know that it had existed. It is possible, according to evolutionary theory, for these squirrels to continue to adapt toward flight until they match the bat’s flying prowess. This would take several thousand years and even more generations of squirrel populations for this to occur, but it is possible and it is likely that bats evolved in a similar manner.Bats are very clumsy on the ground but remember they are now highly specialized for flight. During the transition from terrestrial to aerial locomotion there would be less specialization towards flight & more toward crawling— enough to survive on the ground. [b] [QUOTE] Punisher:
Also, changing toes on a horse doesn't appear to imply the horse is transitioning into anything else other than a horse with more or less toes. It is still a horse.[/b][/QUOTE]Yes, much as humans are apes with an eccentric mode of locomotion.We’re still apes.Regards,jeff

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[This message has been edited by Jeff, 03-01-2002]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jet:
[b][QUOTE]Originally posted by schrafinator:I guess you don't think that lungfish, which exist, are possible.OK, I'll just be moving my chair a little farther away now...***Really schraf, that was silly. What I don't accept is that
I would not accept that anymore than I would accept that a whale, dolphin, or any other sea mammal is in an evolutionary journey from the sea to the land, or visa versa. [/b][/QUOTE]Any rationale behind this assertion ? Isn't the lungfish 'transitionally' between two echo-systems, two modes of locomotion and two methods of respiration ? You don't have to buy the ToE from this example. Just say if it fits the description of a transitional.All I might ask is...why ISN'T the lung fish a hypothetical example of a transitional type ? [b] [QUOTE] That an abundance of wonderfully marvelous creatures exist on this planet is simply more proof of the existance of our most wonderful Creator...[/b][/QUOTE]Is this conclusion based on evidence ?
Please provide the rationale ( or evidence ) for this assertion.
Please also explain how descent with modification denies anyone's god from existing or creating. You said yourself we just disagree. In this case, we disagree as the methods and mechanisms used in 'creating'.What prevents a creator from utilizing evolution to diversify His creation ?
*THAT* ...is what we are discussing. It's easy to throw out claims, but there SHOULD be some tangible evidence backing up the claim. [b] [QUOTE] ...whom you have chosen to abandon because of the Catholic church. I can understand your abandonment of the Catholic church, and I applaud it. What I cannot understand is your abandonment of your Creator. It was not your Creator who instructed the Catholics to adopt the pagan practices of Babylon. Abandon the Catholics, by all means. But you should really try to get to know your Creator now that you are free from the quagmire that is Catholicism. Only when you have come to know your Creator apart from some spurious, if not pagan religious dogma will you be able to fully appreciate the magnificance of the wonders of your Creator and His creation. I wish you much success.*** Shalom Jet
[/b][/QUOTE]What does this have to do with a lung fish ?
Zat all ya got ?
Shall we discuss Salsa recipes too ?Sermons are misplaced and less than convincing here. Stick to the facts, please.jeff------------------
"Freedom of Religion" equates to Freedom -FROM- those religions we find unbelievable.

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[This message has been edited by Jeff, 06-11-2002]

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Originally posted by Jet:

Originally posted by Jeff:

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What does this have to do with a lung fish ?
Zat all ya got ?
Shall we discuss Salsa recipes too ?
***I guess the truth hurts some people. Sorry if I struck a nerve.***

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Shalom

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Jet

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You'll be fine. Take some aspirin and rest. If the pain persists, try a cold compress on the raw nerve.Did you plan to answer what your ineffectual sermon had to do with whether a lung fish is transitional ? or is that too painful too ?Give it a try. We have more aspirin.jeff

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
actually i was scared off by your adolescent like chattering... of course im inheritly wrong because im a christian.

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So ... you lack the courage of your convictions ?I was serving your request, kind sir, by starting this thread. This was to facilitate YOUR interest in discussing evidence. Why change your mind now ?Please go back to the first post and explain those hominid fossils using YECism. The merits of creationism will be determined by its ability to explain the evidence better than the ToE.I thought it would be interesting.jeff------------------
"Freedom of Religion" equates to Freedom -FROM- those religions we find unbelievable.

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Originally posted by Brad McFall:
sO for real; Jeff, I saw in Mann Libe a an outline reconstructed from some fossil that looked like<---------((()))----------0 with legs and for the herpetologist such as I am I only THOUGHT (within a transition defintion or not) of a turtle+snake. This only weighed aganst my knoweldge of herpetology not evolution. Did you get my point are you only running after the bunny inside?

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Brad,Is it possible to reference some photo of this specimen online ?
Sounds interesting.regards,------------------
"Freedom of Religion" equates to Freedom -FROM- those religions we find unbelievable.