"THE EXODUS REVEALED" VIDEO

Brian,I thank you for the in-depth research you provided. I read your whole post, and I think I'm going to read it one more time to understand it even better. Those are some pretty good sources you provided there. Based on the sources you provided, I can see how it is possible to interpret it both ways, that there was a co-regency with a Thutmosis and an Amenhotep simultaneously, or that they could be different persons. As for me, as you I'm sure you know, my opinion is that there was a simultaneous rule of some sort, though it may not be possible to completely prove. I do not think that the chronology necessarily has to be diced up to fit the 1446 BC dating of the Exodus. There are other theories that I have heard of that still fit the Pharaohs even if the Thutmosis' and Amenhotep's were separate reigning at different times.But the data of which you provided is most certainly very valuable. It may even aid me in my hypothesis, but yet will also raise some serious issues that question this hypothesis.All in all, let us not forget that the central focus is that of whether an Exodus occurred or not. I personally believe that there is some authenticity to the dating of the chariot wheels, since there are 4 spoke, 6 spoke, and 8 spoke chariot wheels, not just identified by Wyatt and his team, (in fact, Wyatt and his team revealed very little in compared to the amount of evidence that later teams produced. The problem is, these teams are forced (because it is the right thing to do) to give Wyatt the credit, since he and his team were the first to go diving in this area) but also later teams such as Moller's team, Vivike's team (a Swedish women from Solkholm also), and a couple other teams of which I forget their names.Vivike's team went down on this "land bridge" with metal detectors, and a number of these circular coral formations (as if wheels were standing up with their axels straight up) detected positive with the metal detector. But not only did a great number of these scattered coral formations detect positive, they also decteded metal in "circular patterns"...in the same patterns of chariot wheels. This is not even to mention chariot wheels which were clearly visible.Thorough research has been conducted that the only time when 4 spoke, 6 spoke, and 8 spoke wheels were used simultaneously was during the reign of Thutmosis IV, of the 18th dynasty. The Director of Antiquities in Cairo Egypt confirmed this, and he was filmed saying this. He was positive that these were wheels from the 18th Dynasty, and he even provided the info of why he "knew so".

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But even without an Exodus, enough evidence suggests that Thutmosis and Amenhotep were two kings ruling simultaneously, one in Thebes (Amenhotep) and one in Memphis (Thutmosis).

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But according to this theory aren’t these two pharaoh’s meant to be the same person, I am certain you have stated that Amenhotep I and Thutmosis I were the same person so how can they ‘rule simultaneously’?

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Okay, I see that you are a bit confused as to what we are stating. Your question would be thus: Are we theorizing that Amenhotep I and Thutmosis I may have been the same person? Yes. I did not say however that it was Amenhotep I and Thutmosis I ruling simultaneously. I did not indicate which number.Let me make it clear, Thutmosis was a Pharaoh. But a different kind of Pharaoh--not the highest Pharaoh. As I previously quoted Moller, he says:"According to this hypothesis, when Moses was born Amose reigned and lived in Thebes. Thutmosis I lived in Mepmphis and acted as co-ruler. Both of them could be called Pharaoh.[Editors note: This could be a reason why Thutmosis is not mentioned as one of the 5 names:Horus
He of the Two Ladies
(Horus of) Gold
He of the Sedge and Bee
Son of RaSince the name Thutmosis is that of a Pharaoh, just not full blown Pharaoh.]Pharaoh comes from the word "pero" meaning "big house", which implies that the title was a mark of power and influence.
Thutmosis I was probably the one who acted as Pharaoh in Memphis and who was the father of Nefure, the person who most likely found Moses and adopted him."So no, according to the hypothesis, Thutmosis I and Amenhotep I would not have been rulling simultaneously. Amenhotep I would be ruling simultaneously with Thutmosis II (and since he left for Midian), Thutmosis III replaced him. Amenhotep II would have been ruling simultaneously with Thutmosis IV, according to this hypothesis.I will continue to research this subject more. Once again, thanks for the sources. They bring to light as to why many people out there come up with the ideas that they do, and how easy it can be to interpret many things in different ways.digger2,

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Dear Lys, kindly read the text

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[21: And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind ALL THAT NIGHT, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.]
I realise it could mean that the sea went back all that night, but, alternatively, it could mean that the wind held the waters back all that night. (Sigh) Ain`t interpretation a load to bear at times?

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That is exactly right. I do sincerely believe that that is what it means, that not the wind blew all night, bit it caused the waters to hold back all night. I really believe that since we have the other verse "congealed" that it would be appropriate to interpret it thus: The waters blew once, and the results of that wind held the water up all that night (walls of ice). Gotta admit, interesting discovery about the walls of ice though, eh? PaulK (and others that addressed the land bridge argument),Stay tuned for the hard evidence concerning the various geologists that performed the measurements of the Gulf of Aqaba. Also, the methods and approaches will be provided as well as the equipment they used. There were a ton of people who came up with the same results. Pardon me for me remark about the U.S. and British military. They most likely do have charts of the underwater in that area, but what I meant was perhaps not as thorough, since they have not provided us any data for the measurements and depths as far as I am aware of.This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 07-03-2004 05:29 PM

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~Lysimachus

To add to that, It the mid 14th century was when the four spoke began to be replaced by the six spoke. It was a transitional period as to prevailing/popular wheel design, explaining the presence of both 4 spoke and 6 spoke wheels in the crossing.

My brain must be getting 'congealed.' Are you saying that when the walls collapsed, there were icebergs floating around the Gulf of Aqaba?

That isn't correct.The sources already quoted state that four and six spoked wheels were in use for a considerable period of time.Emuseum – Minnesota State University, Mankato Since the chariot was ony adopted in the Hyksos period there is no way that statement could be correct if the Egyptians stopped using four spoked wheels in the 18th Dynasty.

You are very welcome. I am glad that you are examining them rather than just dismissing them as many ‘bible believing Christians’ have done here before. Personally, I find it difficult to conclude anything else. As most of the Bible’s chronologies are artificial then 1 Kings 6:1 doesn’t need to be taken at face value, and many Christian archaeologists/biblical experts have concluded that the 480 years is schematic. They believe that the 480 years represent 12 generations (12 x 40 years = 480), however, since a generation is closer to 25 years (12 x 25 = 300), then they redate the Exodus to around 1266 BCE. This fits in much better with what circumstantial evidence there is than a 1446 date. But Bible chronologies are hugely unreliable, one of the problems for our debate is that our main source, the Book of Exodus, was written by at least three people and a redactor has spliced these accounts into one narrative. There are many theories about the Exodus, some people (Albright) believe that there were two Exoduses, others believe that Ancient Israel it is a purely literary invention (Davies). I think that for such epic events to be, on the main, archaeologically invisible suggests that we have to reread the Bible rather than go making up wild hypotheses that really have no support.One point about the pharaoh’s being separate people is that it undermines the value of the complete hypothesis. If someone presents an argument that, at face value, looks quite convincing but parts of that hypothesis are proven to be incorrect it has a knock on effect. For example, if it comes to light that the claim that Thutmosis and Amenhotep are not titles and they are separate people, then the whole chronology has to be rejected. I know that it could still be 1446, but the researcher’s arguments for 1446 are the only data that we can judge this date on. I really cannot see how the hypothesis, that Thutmosis’ and Amenhoteps were titles relating to the same person, can possibly be maintained, the evidence certainly makes it look impossible, however, I will reserve judgement until I see what this idea is based on. I have never claimed that there wasn’t an Exodus; all I have claimed is that the Exodus, as portrayed in the Hebrew Bible, didn’t happen, and the weight of evidence against the biblical account is way beyond reasonable doubt. Is there anything other than ‘thorough research’ to support this? For example, for the DofA to say they were used simultaneously must mean that he is basing this on some sort of material evidence, I just wonder what this evidence is. But it wouldn’t matter what the number was, this hypothesis says that all pharaoh’s used both names, the entire argument is that all the ‘Thutmosis’ pharaohs also took the name ‘Amenhotep’. The number is irrelevant, we have been told that Thutmosis I and Amenhotep I were the same person, Thutmosis III and Amenhotep II were the same person, and that Thutmosis IV and Amenhotep III were the same person. But evidence has been presented to nullify this hypothesis, a hypothesis that I haven’t seen any good reason for accepting other than it condenses the Egyptian chronology that otherwise contradicts a 1446 date for the Exodus. You do know that we haven’t been given a single piece of evidence to support this fusion of two people into one, I have no idea what this idea is based on. We haven’t been given anything other than ‘we believe’, what about giving us something like’ we believe based on inscription X, and on letter Y, that’ is there any material evidence to suggest that any of these pharaohs were the same person. But ‘Thutmosis’ is a personal name, it is not a title, how many times do we have to say this. Simply saying that Thutmosis is an official office or rank is useless, we need to know why it is considered an official rank rather than a personal name. But Ahmose *may* have had a coregency with Amenhotep I, as I gave the evidence for earlier. Thutmosis I was the son of Amenhotep I, even although in Moller’s hypothesis we are supposed to believe that Amenhotep I and Thutmosis I are the same person. Remember the mummy discussion ’ Amenhotep I (Thutmoses I) was found in his own tomb, as was Amenhotep II (Thutmoses III). Amenhotep I's mummy was never unwrapped but was x-rayed- and it revealed several genetic peculiarities which were shared by the mummies of several of his ancestors..Thutmosis I never ruled when Ahmose was alive. After Ahmose died, Amenhotep I ruled by himself, Thutmosis I and Amenhotep I MAY have shared a short coregency but Moller appears to find the need to fuse Thutmosis I and Amenhotep I into the same person in order for this hypothesis to work, and as we know that were two different people, the hypothesis fails. But it is mentioned as one of the five names, it isn’t mentioned as one of the five titles. But each pharaoh whose birth name was Thutmosis has this name where it should be, next to the ‘Son of Ra’ title, these have all been provided earlier. Well they couldn’t rule simultaneously in this hypothesis could they, they were the same person according to this hypothesis, However, we do know that they may have shred a short coregency and we know that they weren’t the same person, the hypothesis that they were the same person is unsupported. I have asked this question a few times and haven’t received an answer yet. If Moses was the son of a pharaoh, or a coregent, why on earth would he have to flee to Midian for killing an Egyptian? Pharaoh was a god, he could have killed as many people as he wanted to, who would object? But Amenhotep I was long dead before Thutmosis II was even born. Thutmosis I ruled after Amewnhotep I, and Thutmosis II is Thutmosis I’s son. The coregency of Amenhotep I and Thutmosis II is impossible. What is the evidence that you are basing a coregency of Amenhotep I and Thutmosis II on? There surely has to be some material evidence that this is based on? I fail to see how we can interpret a text that mentions father and son as anything else other than father and son, I fail to see how we can still posit a claim that two people, one talking about the other, are in fact the same person.Brian.

Hi, I was on this particular merry-go-round with Buzz HERE I took Buz's hand and walked him through every instance of Yam Suph in the Bible, of course, he never refuted a single reference. This is Buz's way to maintain Bible inerrancy, just ignore problems.But you are correct, yam suph translates as Reed Sea, and given the itinerary of Numbers, the Yam Suph has to be in Egypt.Nomads do not travel very far in a day, 6 or 7 miles at most, yet were are asked to believe that the Israelites covered 120 miles and only camped twice! Are we given any evidence that nomadic groups can cover these huge distances without the need to camp, no of course we aren't. Do we expect any, nah.Brian.

well, i just love how it's not biblical inerrency we're after, but the inerrency of bad translation.

Brian,I don't have time to make a full response, but let me remind you that the evidence suggesting a coregency would still condense the chronology (time span), even if the Pharaohs were different. It would just alter the names, but not the time span here---allowing the Exodus.The fact that two Pharaohs are facing eachother to me could indicate that they are both the same Pharaoh representing different periods of that Pharaoh. I don't know what on earth would make you "conclude with certainty" that this cannot represent the same person. To me, the data you provided is just what I needed. However, I am emailing Moller on this discussion. I posted the whole discussion so he can evaluate it. Seeing he is probably busy making the final stages of his television series, he may not respond for a while. I'm sure he will provide me with some more data for which to work with, seeing that his book was focussed on the Exodus event, not the Chronology of Pharaohs.By the way, remember to keep visiting the site: 2022 -app ever so often. Mahoney Media Group emailed me back and told me to keep an eye on the website, for they will announce when "The Exodus Case" 3hr/3part television series will be played, and on what station. You will be sure to try and watch it I hope Brian, right? This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 07-05-2004 02:40 PM

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~Lysimachus

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My brain must be getting 'congealed.' Are you saying that when the walls collapsed, there were icebergs floating around the Gulf of Aqaba?

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Based on the viewpoint that there would be a "God" causing this miracle, are you limiting Him? You don't know how foolish you sound when you try and explain things like this from a secular standpoint.The Bible tells us just like it is. The waters congealed. There was an action that took place of which water was formed to ice. One can only imagine the awesomeness of such an event....We're talking MASSIVE ice burgs falling on the Egyptian army...the ice walls that were frozen by the sharp stream of wind by God collapsed. Now that had to hurt!Yikes, if ONLY Hollywood would get it right!

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~Lysimachus

PaulK,I promised you the data for the conducted depth measurements at Aqaba. This is the OFFICIAL stuff, and in no wise have I altered or added any data to the following document. Even the pictures were in the document, so I had to host them at picturtrail in order for all of you to see them:---------------------------------------------------------------------March 26, 2000Hi everyone,Below is the W.A.R. newsletter that first mentioned the ETOPO5 database. After reading this information written by Mary Nell Wyatt I decided to do some more research into this to find out what the exact depth of the Gulf of Aqaba is off of Nuweiba, Egypt. I emailed many different scientists in the US, Britain, and Israel. A lot of them answered back and either faxed me additional information or mailed me copies of their published articles and/or charts. I didn’t contact a lot of British scientists (except one or two) and in fact got most of my information from the Israelis. Since I’m reading the Standish’s book, which detailed their research into this same question, I am now currently contacting more Israeli and British scientists to find out additional information. (Though it’s kind of a waste of time since I basically accept their data, which states the crossing site to be 850 METERS deep. I just want to be sure about this and to see if I’m missing any information. I’m also trying to get copies of their continuous seismic profiles which shows the topography of the submarine fan at Nuweiba which Wadi Watir made — that’s the underwater seabed that the chariot parts have been found on!)Anyway, below are just quotes from articles, newsletters, emails, etc., showing what I have found. If it doesn’t read smoothly that is because I didn’t spend anytime organizing these quotes. I tried to group them (i.e. the ETOPO5 information is first and I grouped quotes from articles I have next). Some of the quotes I took people’s names out because I was going to write up something and send it to some of the critics of W.A.R. and I didn’t want to do free research for them and give out scientists’ names for them to bother. I’m not in the business of doing research for the critics!Now of course I do believe that the southern area of Nuweiba is the crossing site but right now I’m inclined to accept the data that states this area to be 850 METERS deep and not 300 meters. Since we have an all powerful God, I doubt a crossing site that is 3 times deeper than what W.A.R. accepts would have been an obstacle to God’s parting of the sea here.If you have any questions or have additional information please email me at Andrew@discovered.netThanks!Andrew Jones--------------------------------------------------------------------[From W.A.R. newsletter #17; section on The Red Sea Crossing Site]But of particular note is the fact that they are planning an extensive program of scientific research in the gulf, because, "...we still lack basic oceanographic information about the Gulf", stated Yuval Cohen, Director General of the Haifa, Israel-based "Israel Oceanographic and Limnological Research Institute". Tension in the region between the Saudis, Jordanians, Egyptians and Israelis has resulted in a very limited knowledge of the sea floor of the Gulf. Because it is vital to have knowledge of depths, underwater features and currents in order to understand how to handle oil spills, it appears that more detailed research on these matters will be undertaken in the near future. "Soundings" and measurements taken to date have been admittedly inaccurate because of many factors- but foremost is the fact that it is deep but narrow (30 km. at the widest point.)We contacted every oceanographic institute we could find, seeking the most recent and accurate information. We were provided data from the ETOP05 database which is supposed to be the most accurate available. However, it isn’t as detailed as we would eventually like. (Refer to "Data announcement 88-MGG-02, Digital relief of the Surface of the Earth. NOAA, National Geophysical Data Center, Boulder, Colorado.)What it DOES show is a swatch of sea floor from Nuweiba across to the Saudi shore, which is about 300 to 320 feet deep at the deepest point. This swatch of sea floor is roughly between 7 and 10 miles wide. On either side, large cracks in the earth extend down to almost 3,000 feet to the north, and 5,000 to the south. This new information is quite exciting, because it shows a consistent pathway across the gulf to the other shore that, with the water removed, could have easily been traveled. When the digital data was fed to a topographical mapping program, it revealed a 3-D model of the sea floor in the Gulf. Because a 300 foot depth would not show up at all on a map covering this large number of square miles, it has been enhanced to exaggerate the features for purposes of demonstration. The depths are in ratio. That digital model can be seen below.----------------------------------------------------------------[From the NOAA web site section on the ETOP05 database]Information about the ETOPO5 5-minute gridded elevation dataSources for ETOPO5:
ETOPO5 was generated from a digital database of land and sea- floor elevations on a 5-minute latitude/longitude grid. The resolution of the gridded data varies from true 5-minute for the ocean floors, the U.S.A., Europe, Japan,and Australia to 1 degree in data-deficient parts of Asia, South America, northern Canada, and Africa. Data sources are as follows: Ocean Areas: U.S. Naval Oceanographic Ofice; U.S.A., W. Europe, Japan/Korea: U.S. Defense Mapping Agency; Australia: Bureau of Mineral Resources, Australia; New Zealand: Department of Industrial and Scientific Research, New Zealand; balance of world landmasses: U.S. Navy Fleet Numerical Oceanographic Center. These various databases were originally assembled in 1988 into the worldwide 5-minute grid by XXXXX XXXXXXX, then at Washington University, St. Louis, MOResolution and Accuracy:Data values are in whole meters, representing the elevation of the CENTER of each cell. Accuracy of the data set is hard to define, due to the disparate sources of the data. In general, the data sets for the USA, Western Europe, Korea/Japan, Australia and New Zealand are the most precise, having a horizontal resolution of five minutes of latitude and longitude, and vertical resolution of 1 meter. Data for Africa, Asia, and South America vary in resolution from +/- a few meters to only representing every 150m (500 fet), depending on the available source data. Very little detail is contained in the oceanic data shallower than 200m; the interpolation algorithm used by the US Navy to create the oceanic grid from contour charts was set to an arbitrary cutoff of -10m wherever the algorithm would have "overshot" and marked points as above sea level. An example of such an area is off Argentina, near 45S, 60W. All oceanic data are coded at least -1 m; land data are at 0 or greater, except where lake bottoms or other landlocked features go below sea level (Dead Sea, Death Valley, and in central Australia).---------------------------------------------------------------------[Below is an image made from the DBDBV data. Remember the ETOPO5 bathymetric data comes from the DBDB5 (V) database. I found this military web site that lets you output data files or make up charts, like I did below, based on the area of the world you need using the DBDBV database. Though it’s not detailed enough you can see where W.A.R. got their data to make that 3D topographical image in newsletter #17.]---------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: looking for XXXX XXXXXXXHi Mr. Jones,Yes, I assembled ET0P05 but it was essentially a combination of datasets that already existed. The DBDB5 database was used for all of the bathymetry. If you’d like to get information on DBDB5, please contact the National Geophysical Data Center in Boulder Colorado.Good luck,XXXXX---------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: looking for XXXXX XXXXXXX>> So you’re stating that you didn’t use separate datasets for the Gulf of Aqaba but just the DBDB5 database which is itself based on separate datasets?That is correct.>> You wouldn’t happen to know the surveys of the Gulf of Aqaba that the datasets for the DBDB5 are based on would you?Actually, much of the DBDB5 dataset was derived from classified data so none of this information was available when I worked on it.>> Was satellite derived bathymetry used for the ET0P05 database or the DBDB5 or just bathymetric data from ship based surveys?No satellite data.>> Is ET0P05 considered accurate for detailed surveys of depths shallower than 1000 feet?ET0P05 is really not a very good dataset. The * best * data are 5’ or 10’ — clearly a problem for a high-resolution bathymetric needs. I’d recommend that you look into other datasets. Again, NGDC could probably help.Good luck,XXXXX---------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Friday, May 15, 1998 9:42 PM
Subject: ET0P05 on-lineHi Andrew-
We have the ET0P05 data base on-line for searching and downloading subsets. Start at our home page of NOAA National Centers for Environmental Information (NCEI) and then follow hotlinks:
Marine Geology & Geophysics
Products
CD-ROMs
Global Relief CD-ROM (under that is a 2nd hotlink for searching ET0P05)I should warn you that it has been our experience that ET0P05 is not very accurate in near-shore continental shelf regions. But you can check it out for yourself at no cost.
Hope this helps.
XXXXX---------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: ET0P05 doc Seltopo contactAndrew Jones wrote:Dear Dr. XXXXX XXXXX:We’ve corresponded in the past about bathymetric data for the Gulf of Aqaba. I was wondering if you could answer a few questions about the ET0P05 database? I’m a college student doing archaeological research in the Sinai Peninsula (Nuweiba, Egypt) and would like to know the following information if possible:1. Where did the ET0P05 get it’s bathymetric data for the Gulf of Aqaba? What surveys is the data based on? I was told by Dr. XXXX X. XXXX of the Geological Survey of Israel that the R/V Ramona did an accurate survey of the gulf in 1976 and so I’m wanting to know where the ET0P05 got its data from for this gulf. Dr. XXXX mentioned that the NOAA charts and the ET0P05 data was inaccurate for this gulf because they are based on old information.2. Is the ET0P05 considered accurate for the Gulf of Aqaba? I was told by XXXXX XXXXXXX of the NOAA that ET0P05is not very accurate in near-shore continental shelf regions. Do you agree and if so why is the data not accurate for this gulf?3. Can satellites obtain bathymetric data for this gulf? How far down through seawater can satellites see if possible? A non-scientist friend of mine was telling me how satellites showed an underwater landbridge with a 300 foot depth across from Nuweiba, Egypt in this gulf. So I’m trying to find out if satellites have this type of technology to do this and if the ET0P05 database used this for it’s data for the gulf.Thanks for your time and help! It will help my studies considerably!
Respectfully yours,Andrew M. Jones
**************Andrew-ET0P05 got its data from the sources listed in the documentation. The US Navy bathymetric data were compiled from various intermixed and unspecified sources; no identification of individual surveys is possible. There is a newer US Navy database with partial coverage of the Gulf of Aqaba at 2’ resolution, again based on unspecified surveys.DBDB5, the bathymetric source database for ET0P05, was produced by gridding data points interpolated mostly from digitally-scanned contour charts that had no contours shallower than 200m. This resulted in various computational artifacts in shallow areas, particularly where the shelf/slope break was at a sharp angle. Some areas were improved with coastal survey data, but not all, and their identity is not easily determined. The suspected underwater land bridge is not identifiable in any data we have, although there may be an edge effect where two adjacent data sets meet that might appear to be a shallow area were it not on the joint. Mismatched data sources and poor edge processing can create such artifacts.Satellite-derived bathymetry comes from interpretation of sea-surface height as measured by altimetric radar on a satellite (or aircraft). Variations in the water surface level are the results of effects of weather and gravity — the latter is mostly determined by the shape of the local sea floor. Please see links on
Error 404: Page or Resource Not Found | NCEIfor details of the process.
---Dr. XXXXX X. XXXXX
Mail Code E/GC3
NOAA National Geophysical Data Center
325 Broadway
Boulder, C) 80303-3328
(303) 497-XXXX Voice, (303) 497-XXXX FAX-----------------------------------------------------------------Date: Monday, December 07, 19983:30 AM
Subject: Re: bathymetric data for gulf of AqabaHi aspiring Dr. Jones!I knew the originators of DBDB5 and also those involved in producing DBDBV who are now collaborating with us in developing a new global grid at 2.5 minute intervals for inclusion in the next issue of the GEBCO Digital Atlas due out in late 1999. It is still essentially an open ocean product and will not be of much use in the Gulf of Aqaba. You need to understand that digital bathymetry is still in its infancy although there may be detailed grids in US waters, they simply do not exist for most parts of the world. The underlying problem is that very few areas have been properly surveyed and that most bathymetric charts are based on a random assortment of tracks from multiple sources. We know considerably more about the topography of Mars than we do about the seafloor!!! If one finds a high quality bathymetric chart of one's area of interest one is indeed very fortunate.On the question of British Admiralty Charts you need to understand that they are essentially navigation charts, are shoal biased and the bathymetry shown on them tends to be indicative rather than intended as an authoritative bathymetric chart. The source material is normally in paper form and often buried deep in their archives it is not usually a simple matter to dig it out. However, I do know that (in collaboration with staff at the UK Hydrographic Office) XXXX XXXX has put a lot of effort into digging into the archives for his areas of interest, particularly the eastern Mediterranean but also (I think but you'll need to check with him) the Gulf of Aqaba. I would be very surprised if he hasn't used used their data in his map if he has then he will have critically assessed its accuracy (and will probably have adjusted the positions so as to accord with modern measurements) and will have added in any other data that may now be available. Rest assured that XXXX is just as concerned as you might be in getting the bathymetry as good as possible and will have taken the British Admiralty data into account. Personally I would not look further than John's chart he knows all the data sources and one would be hard pressed to beat him!With kind regards
XXXXXXXDr. XXXXXXX X. Jones
Director, British Oceanographic Data Centre
CCMS Proudman Oceanographic Laboratory
Bidston Observatory
Birkenhead, Merseyside
L43 7RA, United Kingdom

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> "Andrew Jones" 12/04 10:25 pm >
Dear Dr. Jones (I like the sound of that!),
Thanks for your reply in regards to your bathy. charts of the Gulf of Aqaba. I have one last question that I hope you or someone could help me with. It is about the British Admiralty Chart #801 used in the late 1970s. I was wondering if you knew what surveys this chart was based upon and how they took the measurements. Also, the current chart #801 of the gulf that is being sold, is it accurate and based on similar data as XXXX XXXX's bathy. chart of the area? I was thinking of ordering that chart later next year but Dr. XXXX gave me his chart of the gulf for free. I'm interested in comparing the 2 charts for my studies.
Oh I do have one other question. Do you know what is the most accurate digital bathymetric dababase for the Gulf of Aqaba? I was using DBDBV on the Internet. Then f was told by a number of people at the NOAA that this dataset wasn't accurate and that I should find another one but I was never told the name of a more accurate database.
Thanks for helping out another Jones!
Sincerely,

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Andrew M. Jones

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Original Message
Date: Friday, December 04, 1998 3:37 AM
Subject: Re: bathymetric data for gulf of Aqaba

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>>From one mjones to another

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Dear Andrew,
I am writing in response to your email to Dr. Lowry and should explain that, in one of my roles, I chair the GEBCO (General Bathymetric Chart of the Oceans) Sub Committee on Digital Bathymetry and am continually on the lookout for good bathymetry. As far as the Gulf of Aqaba is concerned XXXX XXXX is more knowledgeable of the bathymetry of the area than any one else I know and if I was seeking advice on this matter he would be my first port of call. If he says that his chart of the area is the most accurate then I wouldn't look any further.

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At present our product the GEBCO Digital Atlas' contains very little, if any, useful information in the Gulf of Aqaba as it was digitized from the GEBCO 1:10 million scale charts when we come to update the Red Sea (a year or two down the line) we will be using XXXX's material for the Gulf.

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I trust you will find this reply helpful,
With kind regards, XXXXXXX

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From: Dr. XXXX X. XXXX
To: Andrew Jones
Date: Thursday, November 12, 1998 9:15 AM
Subject: Gulf of Elat data

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Dear Andrew:

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After ten months of exasperation I am finally connected to the Internet with an ISDN line. This is my first outgoing message. However if you want to communicate you’ll have to use the fax (XXX-X-XXXXXXX) or telephone (XXX-X-XXXXXXX). This is because too many people want data from me, and the Internet is a lousy source of paper for my filing system.

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In answer to your message to me via Ya’akov Arkin, there is a land bridge off Nuweiba. It rises to depths of slightly more than 850 m, with depths of greater than a kilometer to the north and south. The data on your maps and in ETOPO5 is way off. Upon receipt of your address I’ll send you the 1:250,000 scale bathymetric chart that I published in 1978 with Prof. Zvi Ben-Avraham.

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With best regards, I remain

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Sincerely yours,

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Dr. XXXX X. XXXX
Marine Geophysicist and Head of the
GSI’s Marine Geology, Mapping & Tectonics Division

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Jerusalem, 13 November 1998

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Dear Andrew:

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Enclosed please find copies of various maps and charts which I have put out over the past two decades. Included is the bathymetric chart of the Gulf of Elat which was based upon the survey in 1976 of the RIV Ramona. I include an article from Science on the work. The navigation was very accurate, and even showed that the gulf was 1.6 km more narrower than previously suspected.

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As to your question regarding the errors in the NOAA (and british) charts and ETOP05, there is a simple answer. There was very little work done in the gulf a loop in the south by Vema in 1958, another in the lower half by the Aragonese in 1961, a few soundings by the Pola at the end of the last century, and then some wartime spot soundings which were probably on a scattering layer rather than the bottom. Just after our Ramona survey the WHOI vessel Atlantis II came up to Elat in 1977. All these tracks, with the exception of the Pola, are on the back of the chart. The bathymetry also shows the results of a very detailed survey of the Straits of Tiran which was carried out in 1971. The original chart that I made is reproduced in the USN Chart 62222. Your land bridge simply doesn't exist. The gulf is naturally very deep because it is a strike slip (leaky transform) fault which cuts completely through the earth's crust. For example, in 1982 with the Shikmona we found a hole some 1360 m deep just a few kilometers off Sharm E-Sheikh.

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This next year we expect that the German vessel Meteor will make a swath survey of the deeper areas of the gulf. Following that we'll probably slightly revise the chart. I'll take a look at your website. However the data can't be right.

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With very best regards, I remain

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Sincerely yours,

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Dr. XXXX X. XXXX
Marine Geophysicist, & Head
Of the M.G., M. & T. Division

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Dr. XXXX X. XXXX
Geological Survey of Israel
Marine Geology, Mapping & Tectonics Division
30 Malchei Israel Street,
Jerusalem. 95 501, Israel

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Jerusalem, 24 November 1998

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Andrew M. Jones
8248 Coast Oak Way
Citrus Heights, CA 95610, US.A.
Telefax: (916) 726 0630

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Dear Andrew:

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Your fax arrived last night. More than half of it is illegible due to the facsimile tractor not scanning smoothly. Please send it again. Although I now have e mail (on the kid's computer), it is very inconvenient to use and seldom checked.

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From what is legible in your fax, it is apparent that you are very intent on proving that there is a saddle or submerged land bridge off Nuweiba. Your intentions fly in the face of the experience of two marine geophysicists with some 60 years experience between them The track map on the back of our chart will show you that there were some ten continuous Seismic profiles run in the area between Nuweiba Saudi Arabia. These profiles represent a measurement every 12 seconds, which at 10 kts represents a data point every 60 m. We didn't miss such a bridge. The seafloor topography is a function of what is going on deep within the earth. Any sort of dramatic topography has to have broad roots, which are easily seen on the seismic profiles In addition, diving observations of what's going on near the land hear no resemblance of what's going on in the deeper sea. Especially off Nuweiba, which represents a river delta built out into the gull; and especially, on a gulf which has its origin on a major strike slip fault.

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Don't for a moment put faith in the spot soundings from the old Navy chart. In my PhD thesis on the Arctic Ocean, the deepest area (>5000m) as of 1949 was found to be the shallowest (247 m the Chukchi Cap) in 1967. Where we mapped southern Lebanon tile shallow soundings off Ras Beirut were actually in 1600 m of water. They were simply echo soundings on the deep scattering layer which feeds off the coastal upwelling there.

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I have an ample amount of patience, and a duty to provide information on what the Israeli government knows about its surroundings, so send your questions again by fax and I'll address them one by one. Or perhaps we can discuss it oil the telephone. The price of a call has dropped drastically in the past few years. With very best regards, I remain

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Sincerely yours,

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Dr. XXXX X. XXXX
Marine Geophysicist

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[Below is a track map on back of Israeli bathymetric chart of the Gulf of Elat (Aqaba) showing the routes of the different research vessels (R/V) at Nuweiba, Egypt. Notice that the 1976 survey by the Israeli R/V Ramona covered the crossing site location which I highlighted yellow (OK so I’m not an artist!). If you want a closer very just copy this image from this document and past it into a paint/photo imaging program on your computer and then zoom in]

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[Below is a bathymetric chart from Israel showing the depth of the crossing site to be 850 meters. When you read the quotes from the articles below you can refer back to this map every time the scientists mention the sill (what we call the land bridge) or the submarine cone or fan from Wadi Watir (Nuweiba).]

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[Below is the complete bathymetric chart of the Gulf of Elat that I scanned in pieces and put back together on the computer. I excluded the non-water areas. Copy image to photo imaging software (i.e. Photoshop or Paintshop Pro) and zoom in to see all the features of this chart.]

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Sedimentary Geology, 23 (1979) 239-267
Sediments and Structure of the Gulf of Elat (Aqaba) — Northern Red Sea
Zvi Ben-Avraham
Israel Oceanographic and Lmnological Res., Ltd., Haifa, and Department of Applied Mathematics, The Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot (Israel)
Gideon Almagor
Israel Geological Survey, Jerusalem (Israel)
Zvi Garfunkel
Department of Geology, The Hebrew University, Jerusalem (Israel)

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P 239-240 Of the world rift systems, the Gulf of Elat is of particular interest because it represents one of the two places in the world, the Gulf of California is the other, in which a mid-ocean ridge system changes into a transform system and runs into a continent.

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p. 240 At sea, geologicalgeophysical studies on the Gulf of Elat were done in 1961 by R/V ‘Aragonese’ (Allan et al., 1964) which made a short survey that extended about two-thirds of the way up the Gulf and included measurements of bathymetry, gravity and magnetics, and in 1958 by R/V ‘Vema’ (Drake and Girdler, 1964) which made a very short survey and included measurements of bathymetry and magnetics and the acquiring of one piston core.

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p. 240 In order to study the bathmetry and the subbottomstructure of the Gulf of Elat, a geophysical survey was conducted abroad R/V ‘Ramona’ during May 1620, 1976. The geophysical data included continuous seismic profiles, echo soundings and magnetic field measurements (Fig. 1).

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METHODS

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The entire Gulf of Elat was surveyed with geophysical profiles running perpendicular to the coasts, and about 34 km apart. Two longitudinal profiles were also obtained. Positioning of the vessel was continuously carried out through the use of a Motorola miniranger navigation system. Range measurements were made from the master unit on the ship to transponders located at known positions on the coast. The system has an accuracy of +-3 m. The transponders were moved along the coast as the survey was progressing. The ship’s speed was maintained at 12 km/hr.

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Continuous seismic profiles were obtained using a 300 cu.in. Bolt Par airgun fired at 8-sec intervals. The returning signals were received by a Seismic Engineering Company streamer system towed 140 m behind the vessel. Frequency band of 2060 Hz was recorded on an EPC Labs Model 4600 graphic recorder. Occasionally, higher frequencies were used.

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Vertical exaggeration of the records is approximately 12. Penetration reaches sometimes 3 sec blow sea floor.

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At water depth less than 1000 m an echo recorder was used for accurate depth measurements.

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In addition to these studies, which will be described in this paper, magnetic measurements were carried out using a Varian proton precession magnetometer, and expendable bathythermographs were used for measuring water temperatures.

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p. 242

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BATHYMETRY

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A new bathymetric map of the Gulf of Elat was prepared (Hall and Ben-Avraham, 1978) mainly on the basis of our survey. The map incorporates also data from other cruises (Fig. 1): R/V ‘Vema’ (cruise 14, 1958), ‘Aragonese’ (cruise concrete, 1961) and ‘Atlantic II’ (cruise 93, 1977) which took place after we completed our survey, plus detailed surveys in the vicinity of the Straits of Tiran (Hall, 1975). Combined, all cruises comprised approximately 2500 km of track. The detailed mapping of the Straits consists of another 687 km of track. The maps were originally prepared on a 1:50,000 Cassini projection base, with 50 m contour interval; a reduced version, with contour interval of 100 m is shown in Fig. 1B.

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P. 243 There are practically no continental shelves bordering the Gulf of Elat, and coastal plains are absent or vey narrow. On the western side of the Gulf of elat the Sinai mountains rise abruptly, generally being delimited by coastal faults. Large alluvial fans were built in front (i.e. east) of these fault scarps, so the coastline is sinuous. The fans extend as submarine cones on which many canyons are carved. These reach depths of over 150 m and widths of 11.5 km. The canyons usually have V-shaped cross-sections, but rarely may have flat bottoms. On the Eastern side of the Gulf of Elat, there are no active alluvial fans, although large segments of the Gulf are delimited by up to 10 km wide areas of much dissected alluvium. Coral reefs are well developed along portions of the coasts of the Gulf.

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The margins of the Gulf are very steep. Its eastern side descends abruptly to the deep basins, but on the Western side the descent may be broken by sloping terraces. The eastern margins attain slopes of 2530 degrees. The western slope attains average angles of 16 degrees in its steeper parts, but the shallower parts usually have average slopes of 711 degrees.

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p. 249 [Figure 4 includes a printout of the seismic profile of submarine fan from Wadi Watir (Nuweiba, Egypt) showing canyons cutting through this fan]

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Fig. 4. Continuous seismic profiles 36, 28 and 18 Surface of Wadi Watir fan (profile 36) is dissected by canyons. Submarine canyons can also be seen.

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p. 250 The transition to the basin of the central part of the Gulf is through a sill occupied by a narrow extension of the northern basin, but here the fill is little deformed (profile 32). Here most of the width of the Gulf is occupied by the continental slopes, of which the western slope is much wider than the eastern. In this area the large submarine fan of Wadi Watir was constructed (profiles 32, 34, 36). Its surface is much dissected by canyons. The fan consists of a wedge of poorly bedded sediments which thin downslope. It is underlain by a series with clearer bedding, which is much less undulating than the sea floor (profile 36). However, there is no clear break between the two parts of the section. Farther north the continental slope west of the Elat Deep is much narrower, but there too submarine fans and stratified sediments are apparent.

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p. 259 Because of the special hydrological regime in the Gulf of Elat there are strong currents in it (Klinker et al., 1976) which help wash fine sediments off the slopes and redistribute them into the deep basins.

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p. 266

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REFERENCES

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Allan, T.D., Charnock, H. and Morelli, C., 1964. Magnetic, gravity and depth surveys in the Mediterranean and Red Sea. Nature, 204: 1245-1248.

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Drake, C.L. and Girdler, R.W., 1964. A geophysical study of the Red Sea. Geophys. J.R. Astron. Soc., 8: 473495.

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Hall, J. and Ben-Avraham, Z., 1978. New bathymetric map of the Gulf of Elat (Aqaba), Red Sea. Tenth Int. Congr. On Sedimentology, Abstr., 1: 285.

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Klinker, J., Reiss, Z., Kropach, C., Levanon, I., Harpaz, H., Halicz, E. and Assaf, G., 1976. Observations on the Circulation Pattern in the Gulf of Elat (Aqaba), Red Sea. Isr. J. Earth Sci., 25: 85103.

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Tectonics, Vol. 5, No. 7, pages 1161-1169, December 1986
Character of Transverse Faults in the Elat Pull-Apart Basin
Zvi Ben-Avraham
Department of Geophysics and Planetary Sciences, Tel Aviv University Ramat Aviv, Israel
Zvi Garfunkel
Department of Geology, Hebrew University, Jerusalem

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Page 1164

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METHODS

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The present work is based on two surveys. The firs, which covered the entire gulf, has been described by Ben-Avraham et al. [1979]. A second survey was conducted aboard R/V Shikmona during April 1982 in several selected parts of the Gulf of Elat.
Continuous positioning of the vessel was provided by a Motorola Miniranger navigation system. Range measurements were made from a master unit on the ship to transponders located at known positions on the coast. The system has an accuracy of +-3 m. The ship’s speed was maintained at 12 km/hr.
Continuous seismic profiles (Figures 3-6) were obtained using a 300-cubic-inch Bolt Par air gun fired at 8-s intervals. The returning signals were received by a Seismic Engineering Company streamer system towed 140 m behind the vessel. A frequency band of 26-80 Hz was recorded on an EPC Laboratories Model 4600 graphic recorder; the vertical exaggeration of the records is approximately 12 to 13 times. Signal penetration reaches about .5 s below the seafloor. In addition, an echo sounder was used for accurate depth measurements.

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Journal of Geophysical Research, Vol. 90, No. B1, pages 703726, January 10, 1985
Structural Framework of the Gulf of Elat (Aqaba), Northern Red Sea
Zvi Ben-Avraham
Department of Geophysics and Planetary Sciences, Tel Aviv University, Tel Aviv, Israel
Israel Oceanographic and Limnological Research, Haifa, Israel.

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p. 705 The next survey [after the 1977 survey by the R/V Atlantis II and the 1976 survey by the R/V Ramona] was done in 1980 by R/V Arnona [Mart, 1982] and included continuous seismic profiles in the central part of the gulf. Recently, another detailed study was done in 1982 by R/V Shikmona and included continuous seismic profiles, color bottom photographs, heat flow measurements, and cores throughout the gulf.

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p. 705

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Bathymetry

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The bathymetric map of the Gulf of Elat [Hall and Ben-Avraham, 1978; Ben-Avraham et al., 1979a, b] indicates that there are practically no continental shelves bordering the gulf and coastal plains are absent or very narrow (Figure 1). The slopes in the gulf are among the steepest in the world. Eastern boundary slopes reach 25-30 degrees, whereas those on the west average 16 degrees but are usually less. On the western side, large alluvial fans extend as submarine cones built on sloping terraces.

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Tectonophysics, 143 (1987) 193-200
Rift propagation along the southern Dead Sea rift (Gulf of Elat)
Zvi Ben-Avraham
Department of Geophysics and Planetary Sciences, Tel Aviv University, Tel Aviv (Israel)

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p. 194 The slopes of the Gulf of Elat are among the steepest in the world. Except for the northern third of the gulf, the eastern boundary slopes are steeper (25-30 degrees) than those on the west (16 degrees). This is partially due to the fact that three large alluvial fan with their associated submarine cones exist on the western margin, but none on the eastern margin.

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p. 195

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Seismic reflection

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Except for several multichannel seismic lines on the western margin of the gulf, over most of the Gulf of Elat there is a fairly detailed coverage of single channel continuous seismic profiles (Ben-Avraham et al., 1979a; Ben-Avraham, 1985). These profiles give much details about the shallow subbottom structures.

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p. 199 The bathymetric sill that separates the northern basin from the central basin probably marks the location of a major structural boundary. North of this sill, the gulf is dominated by the large Elat Deep

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SCIENCE
12 October 1979, Volume 206, pp. 214 216
Continental Breakup by a Leaky Transform: The Gulf of Elat (Aqaba)
Zvi Ben Avraham, Zvi Garfunkel, Gideon Almagor, and John K. Hall

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p. 214 A geophysical survey was carried out from the R.V. Ramona during 16 to 20 May 1976 (Fig. la) and included continuous seismic profiles, echo soundings, and magnetic field measurements (7). The new bathymetric map (8) (Fig. lb) reveals many details of the morphology of the gulf. There are practically no continental shelves bordering the Gulf of Elat, and coastal plains are absent or very narrow. On its western side, large alluvial fans were built. These extend as submarine cones into which many canyons have been incised. These cones are built on sloping terraces. The eastern margin of the gulf descends abruptly to the deep basins; thus the gulf is asymmetric in cross section. Eastern boundary slopes reach 25 to 30, whereas those on the west average 16 but are usually less. Most of the Gulf of Flat is occupied by three elongated en echelon basins, which strike N20 25E. Undulations in the floors of the basins produce several distinct deeps (Fig. 1), which we named Elat, Aragonese, Arnona, Dakar, and Tiran. South of the Straits of Tiran is the Hume Deep. The volume enclosed by the gulf is approximately 2550 km3.

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The high quality continuous seismic profiles reveal many structural details about the Gulf of Elat, which appears to be quite complicated. The main morphological units basins, marginal slopes, and terraces are fault controlled (Fig. 2). The marginal slopes and terraces are underlain by coarsely stratified sediments. The individual reflectors are undulatory, irregular, and rough. As a whole, these series resemble the morphologically defined alluvial fans. The penetration recorded reaches 1 to 1.5 seconds, without reaching basement.

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Other articles on the Gulf of Aqaba that I have:

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1.
Tectonophysics, 226 (1993) 319-331
The northern edge of the Gulf of Elat
Zvi Ben-Avraham and Gideon Tibor

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2.
GSI, Current Research 1982
Brief Research Report:
The Northern Red Sea Seismic Survey
John K. Hall and Yossi Mart
Israel Oceanographic and Limnological Research, Ltd., Haifa

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3.
Deep-Sea Research (unpublished manuscript submitted Sep. 1998)
Tidally driven circulation in the Gulf of Elat (Aqaba)
T. Berman and N. Paldor
Institute of Earth Sciences, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, Israel
S. Brenner
Israel Oceanographic and Limonologic Research, Ltd., Haifa, Israel

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4.
Journal of Marine System, July 1998
Simulation of Wind-Driven Circulation in the Gulf of Elat (Aqaba)
T. Berman and N. Paldor
Institute of Earth Sciences, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, Israel
S. Brenner
Israel Oceanographic and Limonologic Research, Ltd., Haifa, Israel

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[Below is some information about the use of satellites to detect seafloor topography from the NOAA web site. According to the Standish brothers, Ron Wyatt told them that satellites provided a much more accurate bathymetric picture of the seafloor off of Nuweiba, Egypt — showing the site to be 300 feet deep (or was that 300 meters?). If Ron did state that then he got wrong information as the NOAA web site’s information below shows.]

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PREDICTED SEAFLOOR TOPOGRAPHY

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NGDC DATA ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: 94-MGG-04

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By W.H.F. Smith* and D.T. Sandwell**
*NOAA/National Ocean Sevice/Office of Ocean & Earth Science/Geoscience Lab
**Scripps Institution of Oceanography

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There are many areas as large as the state of Oklahoma where no depth measurements are available. Satellites carrying radar altimeters have measured the shape of the ocean along tracks only 3-4 km apart, and from these data we can make very accurate (+/- 3mGal) and high resolution (15 km) maps of the marine gravity field. The gravity field mimics the seafloor topography in the 15-160 km wavelength band if sediment cover on the ocean floor is thin The result reveals many new features and is within +/- 100m of actual depths in many cases

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The Predicted Seafloor Topography is an inferred data set and is not true topography. It is, however, the best estimate of seafloor topography available resulting from satellite gravity data and actual ship depth measurements. This data is intended for scientific research and should not be used for navigational purposes.

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This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 07-12-2004 12:08 PM

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~Lysimachus

Well all I can say is, why put so much effort into a post when the basic figure - the 850 m depth - does not seem to be in dispute ? The chart you presented in your earlier post was quite clear and I accepted that when it was presented.Quite frankly you'd do a lot better focussing on points where there is a real disagreement instead of presenting data that was not asked for and does little to nothing to advance the discussion. You could start by explaining how the pattern of names in the 18th Dynasty is "unique" compared to the 12th Dynasty or the Capetian Kings of France.

Hi Ly Then we wouldnt have enugh pharaohs. You are proposing to move Amenhotep's reign back in time to Thutmosis III's reign. I see no good reason to do so. 1446 was during Thutmosis III's reign, Egypt was at the peak of her power, the Israelites had nowhere to go. But the inscription makes it very clear that they are father and son, pretty certain they aren't the same person, if you think it suggests they are then good luck! There's a hint in the fact that their names and relationship is mentioned on the inscription, what would make anyone think they are the same person? Excellent, so now you can tell people that a father and son mentioned in an inscription are the same person, good luck again. LOL, that depends if I have the time to watch it. I might have more important things to do, like washing my hair, clipping my toenails, watching some paint dry, who knows.Catch you later.Brian.

Oh common Brian, don't be silly. Can you try and watch it for me at least? Just for me?

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~Lysimachus

50. DATING THE WHEELS ON THE SEA BEDCan these wheels tell us anything about the date of the even which caused them to end up at the bottom of the Red Sea?The number of spokes is of great importance in determining the date. It is believed that these war chariots came to Egypt via the Hyksos people, and were probably of Syrian origin. They were introduced into Egypt towards the end of the 17th dynasty (Pharaoh Kamosis, the last ruler of the 17th dynasty), and the beginning of the 18th dynasty (Pharaoh Amosis, the first ruler of the 18th dynasty). The four-spoke wheels were used in the beginning, and are regarded as an indication of the date of the early period of the 18th dynasty. They were used until the time of Thutmosis IV (53. J.K. Hoffmeier (1976) Observations on the Evolving Chariot Wheel in the 18th Dynasty, JARCE, 13.). The eight-spoke wheels can be seen on the chariot bodies of Thutmosis IV’s war chariots (figure 373), and are considered to be a short-lived experiment during a brief spell of his reign. After Thutmosis IV only six-spoke wheels were used. However, these were already sometimes used at an earlier date during the of Thutmosis IV (53. . J.K. Hoffmeier (1976) Observations on the Evolving Chariot Wheel in the 18th Dynasty, JARCE, 13.), (54. Y. Yadin (1963) The Art of Warfare in Biblical Lands, Weydenfeld and Nicholson, London, England.).Altogether, this establishes the date of the wheels discovered as within a limited period, which is summarized in figure 405. The four-spoke wheels were used until the time of Thutmosis IV. The eight-spoke wheels were used during a short period of time, probably only during the reign of Thutmosis IV. This six-spoke wheels began to be used during the 18th dynasty, particularly after Thutmosis IV, but they also existed to a limited extent before Thutmosis IV. Hoffmeier (53. . J.K. Hoffmeier (1976) Observations on the Evolving Chariot Wheel in the 18th Dynasty, JARCE, 13.) expresses his conclusions as follows: Another picture source from the reign of Thutmosis IV is the workshop scene from Hepus’ grave. Here the wheel constructors are working with four-spoke wheels. This signifies that four-spoke wheels were in use during a limited period after 1400 BC. From then onwards, for the remainder of the 18th dynasty, chariot wheels were normally depicted with six spokes.During the succeeding dynasties the six-spoke wheel dominated. This means that there was a change in the number of spokes during a short period. This was a gradual transition from four-spoke to six-spoke wheels at the beginning of the 18th dynasty, and during a brief period (Thutmosis IV) there was also an eight-spoke wheel.The reign of Thutmosis IV is said to have been from 1419 to 1386 BC (43. P.A. Clayton (1994) Chronicle of the Pharaohs, Thames and Hudson Ltd., London England.). However, it is probably that this reign was at a somewhat different time, depending on how one interprets reigns and names, which are discussed in chapter 12.The wheels found on the bed of the Red Sea represent wheels with four, six and eight spokes. This gives a date during part of the 18th dynasty, most likely during the reign of Thutmosis IV or shortly before it. Several different varieties of chariots and wheels were to be expected at the Exodus since all the chariots in Egypt were mobilized (Ex. 14:7).Dating the events in the Red Sea, which resulted in the defeat of the Egyptian army, can then be summarized as follows (Table 12): (53. J.K Hoffmeier (1976) Observations on the Evolving Chariot Wheel in the 18th Dynasty, JARCE, 13.)
(54. Y.Yadin (1963) The Art of Warfare in Biblical Lands, Weydenfeld and Nicholson, London, England.)
(71. R. Partridge (1996) Transport in Ancient Egypt, The Rubicon Press, London, England.)It can be assumed with good reason that the Exodus took place some 1450 years BC, and that the chronology calculated with the help of biblical texts agrees well with the wheel dating.It should be noted that only eleven war chariots have been preserved until modern times. All of these are from graves, and four of these eleven are from Tutankhamen’s burial chamber. No war chariots or wheels have been discovered from anywhere else except these graves. The chariots found in the graves were for the pharaohs, and had a ceremonial purpose and/or were intended for the pharaohs’ death journey. Inscriptions show other wheel types as well.Editors note: So there we have it friends! It is quite clear that the wheel dating pretty much sums up that the Exodus did occur during the 18th dynasty, under the reign of Thutmosis IV (Amenhotep III). It may be noted too, that if Thutmosis IV was the Pharaoh who drowned in the Red Sea, it had to have been the same as Amenhotep III, because Amenhotep III was at Egypt’s height, and then decline started right after beginning with Amenhotep IV (Akhenaton)Source: The Exodus Case, by Dr. Lennart Moller.This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 07-12-2004 12:11 PM

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~Lysimachus

To tell you the truth, I really don't think we need to argue about the chronology of the 18th dynasty, for this pretty much sums it up. Thank God for archeology!

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~Lysimachus