Is christianity, or religion in general, a belief of convinience?

This is an interesting story. I experience the same situations with my friends except from the other perspective. In my case it is I who take the Bible literally and argue for Christianity and against evolution. I am always the one that enjoys the discussions and they tend to shy away from such discussions except for one agnostic friend of mine.The thing I have learned through this is that such debates almost NEVER cause one person to accept the other's viewpoint. The whole debate is just to establish one person's authority in the matter over the other's. So it is usually wise to decline debating things like this especially between friends. In the end it all comes down to a decision not matter how persuasively one person or the other argues.It may not be that your friend does not want to think freely, but maybe she just realizes the futility of arguing with you. There is a LOT of information floating around out there and a LOT of opinions and viewpoints about all sorts of different things and many are wrong or filled with half truths. Just look at politics. You have to choose what to trust.I presented evidence against evolution to my friends who are biology majors, and they just got mad and didn't want to talk about it. They couldn't even imagine the earth not being 4.6 billion years old. How's that for not thinking freely. It IS sooo much simpler!!! But no, belief is not a ticket to intellectual laziness. Noo!! A person's beliefs has nothing whatever to do with intellectual thinking. The thing is that intellectual thinking alone does not find God. A person chooses to believe in God. Belief in God can open up a whole new dimension of intellectual thinking, but those who do not believe cannot understand it.

The humble Christian has found is finding and will continue to find truth.The arrogant Christian may or may not have found truth, but even if he has it is useless to him. You've got it backwards. It is the knowledge of the truth that makes them stand up to any direct challenges against it. But the humble Christian does not run around on crusades trying to set everything straight and challenging every false truth. Well, yeah. Another person's religion may be psychologically meaningful, but not spiritually meaningful. If I know the truth with absolute certainty and something contradicts it, then naturally I'm going to discard it.This is not intolerance. Intolerance is discarding a person for their beliefs. A true humble Christian views everyone with the same virtue love no matter what their beliefs.It is funny that I have a friend who thinks he is tolerant of all beliefs, but really is intolerant of anyone who rigidly adheres to a belief. When you say "arrogant" thought, that implies that they are motivated by selfish reasons or consider themselves above authority. In fact most think they have the truth, because they have humbly sumitted to it with an unselfish desire to know God. How can you truly think freely when you choose to ignore a whole dimension of reality? When atheists present arguments on here, I try to consider it from their viewpoint. But having belief in God opens up a whole different way of thinking about things, which unbelievers cannot understand. To them it is foolishness. To me it makes perfect sense.

Thanks for your reply. Honestly, I don't know. I mean I could go into all the reasons why I personally am convinced of the truth: fulfilled prophecy, the inerrant cohesive structure of the Bible, answered prayer, unspeakable peace and happiness, my friend's testimony of visions from God of angels and demons, the existence of demonism, the applicability of Bible doctrine to life, the power of the gospel, etc... and so forth... but they mean nothing to anyone else. First, you have to decide that God is real. The evidence is all around you if you want to see it. Then, you have to decide you want to know him. If you want to know him, he will make himself known to you. It is a decision not an action. If us knowing God depended on anything we did, it wouldn't be fair, because it would be based on our merits and efforts and not God's. I have considered it. I'm not perfect. There have been times I've seriously doubted my beliefs. But I always come back with an answered prayer and stronger faith than before. I recall the reasons I believe and God usually adds a new one on top. I've seen (on tv granted) supernatural miracles performed by monks, which I attribute to demonism. If you've ever talked to a missionary to the heart of Africa or other places where demonism is rampant, you'd hear some REALLY freaky stories of what goes on there. I've talked to several MK's (missionary kids) at my school, and in these foreign tribes demonism is simply a way of life.As far as the spiritual fulfillment they claim, this comes from the application of a viable moral code. As I have explained in other threads, moral truth is not monopolized by Christians, only spiritual truth. Ever been to the slums of India? I know someone who just came back from there with a missionary. There was no fulfillment there. Only poverty and rituals to idols. Of course you can explain this away by saying their government is more oppressive and education is lacking, but it doesn't explain the painful hurting looks on their faces.I guess if you really wanted to know for yourself, you'd have to engage (actually believe) in every single religion and decide which one is really true. I understand. I really do. You have a worldview without certainty of truth and without God. But you have to understand how a person's worldview changes in light of Bible doctrine and acceptance of "truth" (or what we believe is truth). You also have to understand the difference Christianity makes in people's lives. Well, to specify, it is not I who have the edge, it is all God. But I see what you are saying. This is what my agnostic friend says. I've thought of this too, but then I realized, luck has nothing to do with it. If you think this, you have not understood Christianity. I'm sure many Christians go through a sort of sophomoric stage where they realize that they have the truth and then begin to think that they deserve the credit and approbation for it. But nothing is further from the truth.It is an amazing thought to know how nothing you are in comparison with God and to know that you have not earned or deserved anything you have. Even more amazing is the thought that he paid the price for your sins (the ultimate act of humility) for you! The whole Christian mindset focuses on this. Once one realizes that God is everything, there is no room for arrogant self-agrandizment or ego stroking. It's all about God and not about us. That is not Christian viewpoint thinking. A Christian should see every person as loved by God and deserving of everything he can give them. Its ok. I'm used to it. Ha.. well a person's definition of a fact varies depending on their cyncism. As stated in another thread, the only way we "know" astronauts went to the moon is a metallic box we can still ping with a laser. In other words, were it not for that this person would not consider it a fact that we went to the moon. But anyways, I have my reasons to believe that what I believe is truth. And if I wasn't sure that it was truth, then I wouldn't believe in it in the first place. God. Exactly how is it irrational? by invisible spirit man I assume you mean God? I think the existence of God certainly makes a ton of sense. But then this always comes back to the fact that if you believe it makes perfect sense and if you don't it doesn't. It is a choice. Do you want to know God or not? no.. I said, "When atheists present arguments on here, I try to consider it from their viewpoint."In fact the closest I've ever come to losing my faith was when arguing with atheists on here about answered prayer when a particular prayer request was not being answered. I contemplated life without God.But yes, there comes a point (and hopefully I've reached that point) where a person's faith is so strong that nothing can touch it. Most agnostics I've encountered are the same way. The only agnostic I am friends with was raised Catholic.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 07-13-2004 12:38 AM

I didn't. I was not influenced by my parents friends pastor or Bible. I tried for a while to reconcile evolution with the Bible and eventually gave up thinking it was just too great a mystery for me to understand. I tried for a while to believe in evolution, but the leaps of faith it made and the lack of evidence of intermediary fossils just did not sit right with me. I tried to understand how uniformitarian geology produced the features I saw, but something still did not sit right with me. Then I bought Walt Brown's book and my eyes were opened. All kinds of questions I had about the world around me were answered. I learned a little more here and there and now I'm convinced that evolution is not responsible for creation and expansion of complexity of lifeforms. I watched a show on the discovery channel about mystery after mystery that science cannot explain, and it was SOOO obvious to me how the hydroplate theory explained them. I've learned more and more about the Bible and it is amazing how well everything fits.

I said... you said... All this makes sense, except I DID give them evidence. I gave them evidence such as that about missing helium, missing Volcanic debris, missing river sediments, continental erosion rates, mostly shallow meteorites, young comets and the poynting-Robertson Effect, and the fact that radioactive decay rates are only known to be constant for a century or less as compared to the earth's supposed 4.6 bill year history.They just said, "No, it can't be... there's... there's all those fossils..." One girl just got red-faced and angry... They refused to contemplate a young earth even though they had no specific evidence to support the old one. This is NOT free thinking. This is what you accuse myself and other fundamentalists of... automatically believing anything someone tells you.[note let's please not make this a side discussion about dating methods]Easy. If you actually DO accept the Christian God, by definition he is the one true God. All other gods are linked to demonism and work as a placebo to attempt to fill the void God left in our hearts for Him to fill. Agreed. That is why I am continuing to learn from both Christian and non-Christian scientists and why I come here, to have my knowledge challenged. ...and of course it is not arrogant at all that evo's are so certain of the truth regardless of contradicting info, lack of info, and the fact that no one knows how it got started in the first place. If I did not know Christ is Lord with absolute certainty, I might as well not believe. Its an all or nothing kind of deal. No half-assing it.Now I THINK I know that evolution is not responsible for life forming and I'm THINK I know that the earth is less than 10,000 years old, but I am still working out the details on that one.

According to the Bible there are many spirits and not all are from God. According to the Bible only a spirit that acknowledges "Christ is Lord" is from God. As for enlightenment... Much peace and happiness can be obtained simply through self-discipline following basic morals and isolation from the rest of the tumultous world. This kind of happiness is not a monopoly of Christianity. I think the Bible is pretty clear that those who have heard and understood the gosple and rejected it are condemned. We can only be condemned on the basis of our rejection of Christ. So as for those who have not heard... there are a couple of ways to look at it... If they did not have the opportunity or ability to choose, they cannot be condemned. If they did decide they wanted to know God, God can provide a way to know him (I'm not saying through other religions). Often people say... "well you're trying to say what God can and cannot do..." The only things God cannot do are deny his character. He cannot lie. He cannot be unfair. And He cannot accept those who do not possess his righteousness. Through Christ all have the ability to possess his righteousness.

for everytime someone has asked these questions... I'd have a lot of nickels.

Well for ages past mankind has looked at nature and at the stars and said... "There MUST be a god that started it all."Of course... no longer is that the conclusion one is necessarily forced to.

Wow! so I'm NOT the youngest one here. I'm 19 as of 10 days ago...sorry ya'll... this has nothing to do with anything...

Some spirits (demons) are obviously evil. They demand human sacrifices or sex orgies (read about the phallic cult) or posses people and cause them to become irrational and violent. Some are more subtle and gently deceptive providing (magical) powers or insight or speaking through mediums (I won't go into the visions my friend, Micah, has been allowed to see of angels and demons). Any spirit that does not admit "Christ is Lord" is a demon.Demon possession is actually more common than you would think and it would not be too hard to find a demon possessed person. Necromancy goes under the name of "channeling" in America today or witch doctoring in other places or oracles or voodoo. Also, testimonies of thoes who've experienced alien encounters also bear a striking resemblences to those of channelers.I'm sure you think all of this is hogwash. But where there's smoke there's usually a fire. And there sure is a lot of smoke out there. Because the idea of anyone going to hell is emotionally repulsive. They cannot possibly imagine a loving God sending anyone but the most horrible villain to hell. As of late, yes. The story does not unfold quite the way you portray it.I had the privilege of hearing Marylin Maslow speak last semester and her story was very interesting. She became a missionary to the Seepekewam tribe in Papua New Guinea and stayed with them for about 40 years I think, and learned their language and helped make a BIble translation for them. These people had never heard of the outside world and lived the same way warring with their neighboring headhunters for thousands of years. They had a witch doctor to control the "spirits" (she saw some very frightening demonic activity) and they believed that the crocodile was the creator of their tribe. They worshiped the crocodile as their ancestors had for millenia. The first time she and the tribal leader were able to communicate effectively, he explained to her the laws that the people go by. The laws were almost the same as the ten commandments and the golden rule. From this common moral ground, she was able to witness to the whole tribe and they accepted Christ with complete faith. After many years of translating the Bible, the first canoe load of Bibles arrived up the river. When the people saw the canoes filled with the Word of God coming up the river, they lined the river ecstaticly cheering and had a huge celebration. At the end of forty years, the whole tribe was converted to Christianity and 8 or so (i forget) young men came to America to become pastors and missionaries to go back and witness to their enemy tribes.Anyways to answer your question... yes, if a person hears and understands the gospel, but rejects it the blame is on him.

If you really believe that, then I can't. I can only try to change your mind by showing you an alternative.

That's true. I'm not saying they all are. I'm just saying it's possible and it does happen. Look into the phallic cult a little more and you'll find there's a lot more going on than just a little dicking around. No... I try to stay away from that sorta thing... Dang... you should asked them if Christ is Lord in the middle of a frenzy and see what they do. How many times did you witness this? BTW I've spoekn with an MK from Africa and he's seen a lot more than just getting riled up as has my friend Micah, that I mentioned. God's righteousness, justice, AND love were satisfied through Christ's work on the cross and cannot be satisfied any other way.

THIS is where the role of the Holy Spirit comes in.

An interesting post. There is another flaw as well, which is the basis of the question of this thread. Drugs inhibit thought. It seems most people participating this thread believe that this is what Christianity does too. In Christianity, thought is never discouraged. What happens to the believer who studies Bible doctrine is that new thought replaces old thought. Just because this new line of thinking makes life much more pleasant, does not mean that thinking has ceased or slowed. Everyone circulates doctrines or beliefs in their mind. The atheist or agnostic has many doctrines such as the doctrine that their own reasoning, knowledge, and perceptions are probably the only means of perceiving all reality. They may also have the doctrine that everything must be doubted or that religion is psychologically good for people or dangerous or that every belief is equally valid or that we are all here as products of chance and that there is probably no afterlife.All these things circulate through the thought patterns of the atheist or agnostic. The Christian simply replaces these thoughts with thoughts referencing God. The Christian thinks about everything in relation to God. Just because the atheist is of the belief that God does not exist does not make the Christian's thinking any less valid than his own. The atheist places all trust in himself. The Christian places all trust in God. It seems as though the atheist doubts everything BUT himself. The Christian doubts himself, but never doubts God. Please tell me, SD, what do you consider meaningful and why?

Thank you for your reply. I agree. I believe that if something I believe in is true, then pursuing every detail and every controversy will eventually reveal the veracity and depth of it in new and interesting ways. Of course if this does not happen I would quit believing... And after all my questioning (and I have asked myself pretty much every question agnostics/atheists on here have asked) I have become a stronger believer, not an atheist or agnostic.Of course, many who start questioning might not carry the questions to their conclusions or might not have enough knowledge of what they believe in to know what they are questioning, so for these people questioning might destroy their faith altogether. THIS is why authority is important. People must hold off questioning long enough to fully understand things. Otherwise they could learn nothing. In a class in school, you cannot doubt everything the prof teaches you or you will learn nothing. I agree. However, as Crashfrog pointed out in some other thread, if you doubt everything, you can know nothing. I'm fiddling with the idea that doubt becomes the opiate for the intellectual. By shoving more and more things over into the area of "doubt" one no longer has to deal with them, because they are an uncertainty. And why waste one's time with what may or may not be? By doubting, one ignores the disconcerting possibilities of the existence of God, accountability, an afterlife, aliens, demons, angels, etc... I am sometimes the opposite of a doubter. I tend to assume things are true or have a basis or origin in reality unless I have a reason to believe they are not. Humans are not truly creative as in the sense of creating something or imagining something without some tie to reality. Humans can only analyze and synthesize information in new ways (break it down into elements and then reassemble into something else). Because of this I assume that everything has SOME basis in reality even if it must be traced back through several cycles of analysis and synthesis to find the connection. Yep. Yea! Well, to be honest, MOST people are not critical thinkers or have no interest thinking critically about everything. For them, they generally believe in all kinds of things without questioning, which is why mass media is so powerful. So religious fundies are only one group of people out of many that has earned the reputation for not thinking critically. As for myself, I was asking my mommy what atoms and electrons and quarks were made of when I was in kindergarten, so I tend to ask questions about all sorts of things, and yet I am a "fundamentalist Christian". And fundamentalist Christianity mandates that the Christian "study to show thyself approved..."But to get back to your statement, I think accepting anything without thinking about it can be dangerous.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 07-18-2004 01:12 PM