Is christianity, or religion in general, a belief of convinience?

This may be a wierd question, but something happend to me recently that kinda braught me to ask it.I have two friends who are very VERY christian. In the past we have debated things not to unlike things go on here, but eventualy we had to agree to disagree. It was just gonna hurt our friendship if we kept going at it, I almost felt sorry for him too.See, he wanted to "save" me cuz I was his friend.... oh boy, what a mess that was. I am not a christian, I am agnostic. I think all belief systems have equal weight and value.whatever...Anyway, these two friends are married, and I knew them both seperately before they tied the knot, indeed before they even met each other. The girl used to be a free thinker and not very religious at all, but when her and the boy got together she sort of took things up with his viewpoint.Now she thinks the same way he does. More disturbing still, she refuses to have any sort of philosophical conversations at all anymore, she considers them too much "trouble".And then it dawned on me!Religion for her became the perfect excuse not to think criticaly. Im serious, it was very easy for her to justify her existance and go about day to day. She just simply refuses to think deeply about anything anymore since to her, her belife in god has made all such issues of no consequence.I presented her with all the data on evolution vs. creation, she shruged and gave me a response amounting to "the way I think of things makes it easier for me. So I don't care if it's right or not."This was nothing but astounding to me!Shes gotten worsse I hate to say. The other day we saw a japanese film, where people were leaving offerings on graves. She commented on how stupid that belief was. It irked me to no end at how intolerant, and close minded that statement was. But it none the less brought me back to her previous reactions on things.Life must be simpler to her this way.So I thought I would bring this tale here, is religion an easy answer?Is it a convenient methodology for simplifying your life? Is it a way to eliminate complex questions, and deep thought?

True, but in this particular case she used it as a conversation stopper. We were debating the issue, and she being a bible literalist, took me up on it. When I cornerd her on the facts, her reaction was to blow it off with this "It dosn't matter either way" kinda statement.It just seemed like she was using it as an easy out. Can they really?Isn't one of the prime tenets of modern fundamentalist christianity that christians know the "truth". They got it figured out.As a matter of fact its this knowledge of "truth" that makes them challange anything that is an afront to it.Her, and indeed many fundamentalists, inability to even give a nod to someone elses religion as something meaningfull, is another example of this. A fundamentalist christian is PREVENTED from acknowledging someone elses belife system by the very Bible itself.So can a christian truely think freely?It seems rather hard what with the arogant thought that they have the "truth", as well as the impending guilt that they may be thinking "blasphemous thoughts".How can you truely think freely when you blindly reject anything that challanges your belifes.

What about evidence that contradicts christ? There is much of it. Is this a choice made consiously in your own mind?i.e. "I choose that nothing, nomater what, will challenge my belife"Isn't this automaticaly prejudice to any ideas that could pose fundamnetal problems to your belife. Or do you consiously choose to belive INSPITE of these potential problems?(BTW: I don't want to sound harsh or disrespectfull at all mike, Im just honestly curious about this.) Well can something, or can't something challenge the core of the belife. Is there nothing that could potentialy harm its integrity? What I am understanding from this, is similar as to what I got from my friend, something like:"Life is short, so far beliving in god has worked for me, so Im just gonna stick to it right or wrong."I suppose that is a fair statement then. Perhapse it is not such a far fetched aproach to life, it frees you up from a whole buttload of wondering about stuff

But how can you profess to know the "truth" as in, the ultimate truth, when so many proffese to do the same? What makes it true and just not personal conviction to a strongly held OPINION. See, thats just it. You have already made a glaring assumption that someone elses belife is mearly a psychological placebo, yet you cannot consider that perhapse your own belife may actually be psychollogical as well.After all, there are many budhists in this world who feel just as strongly as the christians about their belifes. They claim miracles, personal anecdotes of spiritual fullfillment what habe you.If other religions are experiencing similar phenomenon as those experienced by christians, why do christians, indeed any religion, so convinced that they are somehow in possesion of the right idea, and the others arent? It is not the adherance to a belife that is hard to fathom. Its the inability, to even for one moment, consider the other persons belife and think for a second "Hey, maybe there is something to the fact that he belives in his scripture just as strongly as I belive mine. Maybe.... there is something similar about this whole belife thing"Instead its more like "poor heathen". I just cant even begin to explain how disturbing that sort of thing sounds to me. Heh... it is arrogant when you essentialy discard the viability of 75% of the world populations social, ethical, theological, and philosophical contributions to humanity. Nay, "arrogant" when you pitty them for not beliving as you do.In this case arrogance is not selfishness, just a belife that you got an edge on everyone else when you really dont. Arrogance is going into countries and trying to subvert a culture with your own, while feeling good about "saving" people. Arrogance is beliving that your gonna get the ultimate prize at the end of the rainbow just cuz you were lucky enugh to be born in the bible belt while millions upon millions are just gonna go burn in fire for ever and ever.Its just too convenient a belife. Too self agrandizing, it strokes the ego so well to maintain that you are "humble" and yet are destined for the big payoff cuz you got the "truth". It makes it to easy to look at others as just folks who are either going to hell, or are in bad need of conversion. It makes it even easier to look at everything around us as nothing but "disposable". What does it matter if the world is falling appart "Im going to heven" and "it all gonna end anyway".Im sorry if I sound down on christians. I really am not, I don't like many religions that profess this sort of atitude, personaly I find them dangerous belifes for the reasons above. How can you think freely when you can't tell the difference between an opinion and fact?What dimension of reality am I ignoring? The irational belife in an invisible spirit man? So basicaly your belife in god prevents you from takeing someone elses viewpoint which is my point entirely. This is why it must be very difficult for the devoutly religious to acknowledge someone elses belifes as viable.BTW, I havent allways been a non-beliver.

Sorry to all who have been waiting for my reply. I have been lurking an meaning to respond but I have been soooo busy. We are working on a big project at work and I have been pulling alot of late nights. Today I got home early tho, and rather than let my friend try and push me into another bout of trying to get into that horrible game 'Final Fantasy XI', I think I will engage my mind in the ultimate MMORPG, the EVC forum! heheh...But thats for crash's video game thread So onto your post mike: I understand your point, yet there is a fundamental problem with this way of thinking.You are basicaly saying that you will willfuly not examine the very real possibility that your belifes are a placebo, and decidedly declare it the "truth" with no objective analasyss whatsoever.I have taken the other side, I was a christian at one point but after examining my belifes and considering others, I realized that my faith was not founded in reality whatsoever. I may as well had been beliving in Santa Clause. No, it's like saying Santa Clause is real. He defies all logic, no one has ever seen him, there is not one iota of verifyable evidence for him. Yet I declare that he is real and that I am right!Evolution is real, it can be tested, it can be seen, it can be verified. You may as well be denying gravity, or that the sky is blue. Which Is what I think most fundamentalists spend their time doing anyway.evolution is independantly verfiable, far away from my personal delusions. I can deny the existance of trees all I want, its not going to make them disapere. I dont reject, or accept any religion as having absolute truth. I have a personal dislike of christianity because of the way it has treated me, but I still respect its deeper merits and philosophies. I do the same for other religions as well.Religions to me are beutifull philosophical constructs worth examining and studying. A christian wouldn't even go that far for fear his belifs may be corrupted. Thats a generalization, burt I have met a few who really think that.And yes, there is something to belife. Its called the placebo effect. I am not going to make personal judgments on you mike, but I will speak of christians that I have known thrughout my life.I went to a missionary school at one point, the teachers were mostly evangelicals. They were in my home country to convert people from catholisism to protestant christianity, and they would tell us every day how all these people were doomed and they came bringing hope.So yes, the attitude was of the "poor heathen" variety. Christ sure did accept anyone, but christians sure don't. The world view is bent on judgmentalisim with the venier of humility. Well, I can verfy Apples come frome trees. You can't prove that apple comes from grass gods anymore than you can prove they come from your god. But I can see them growing from the trees, pick them, eat them. It dosn't matter what anyone 'belives' about them.

Sleeping Dragon,I agree, wholeheartedly. Religion can be a good force in peoples lives, I just don't think its good for peoples personal belifes to cloude their judgement and/or close their minds off.Thats what was particularly upseting about the incident. I have known her for years, but she has changed since then. She don't 'challange' herselfe anymore.

What of those who feel this way about thir religion? The hinus who claim to hav eseen Ganesh, or the Budhists who have achived enlightenment etc.They claim this same level of reality.could these not be manifestations of the same spirit?Im sure if god is real, he can express himself in many ways. I can agree with this. By this logic, would you say that those who do not belive in christ can go to heaven?That is somene who is accepting of others despite her/his personal spiritual belifes?

Yes, but which truth?Whats the standard for truth then? If the standard for truth is just any ol thing you belive then, your thoughts are as good as mine.So, I don't need christ, because thats my personal belife and since it can neither be proven or disproven I hold it as an absolute truth.hehehe

This is sort of like Pascals wager. Can you give me proof of spirits of any kind, and that your spirit is the right one?How can you brand someone elses "spirit" is fake, and say so definitively, when upon the same grounds he can brand your "spirit" as fake.You both belive you are right, yet there is no way to prove ones case over the other.Its a matter of opinion. Prove to me that red is not a better color than blue.see what I am saying?You can't say "Im right, because I am", thats the dumbest argument ever. If it is so clear then how come many christian denomenations interpret these passages so very diffeerently?Catholisisim for example has a very tolerant aproach to other religions. Ok, so you come up to a native and say "god is the only god""I worship the sun, he gives me light, food and life"You say, "the sun is not a god, god is a man who died a long time ago, and he loves you. but if you don't love him back, he will throw you in a lake of fire for ever and ever"Native "Why would he do that, I thought you said he loved me?"You "cuz you are sinfull garbage, only christ can make you whole"Native "So where is this god?"You "He lives in heven"Native "Where is that"you "I don't know"Native "Whats he look like"you "I don't know"Native "I can see the sun, he takes away the night, he makes the plants grow, he takes the chill out of the winter. I'll stick with the sun"Can you blame the native? Yet another testament to the very paradox of an omnipotent being.Ill just let this statement stand on its own.

prove to me that the sun isn't a god Hangdawg13I say hes a god, and created the universe. Prove Im wrong.

Just cuz you don't understands someones culture dosn't mean they are possesd by demons. The phallus in many asian cultures is a symbol of fertility and abundance. It brings life. Is that such a far fetched concept?Other cultures have similar symbols, except they often use pregnant women, or earth godess imagery.Is it just strange to you that its a penis? Asian cultures also have a much more liberal view about sex and sexuality given that they wrote some of the best books on the stuff ever seen a christian revival? snake dancing? speaking in touges? nuff said. Yes, I have a very vivid imagination too. Once I had a dream I could move things with my mind. It seemed so real, that when I woke up I tried to actually do it for like a half hour before I felt silly and gave up. The mind is a powerfull thing, demons, no. prove there are spirits at all. Yes it's hogwash.I lived near Haiti most of my life and have seen "voodoo". Its bullshit, plain and simple, People rile themselves up in their own frenzy and writhe and act nutz. Not too different from the kind of junk you see on TBN in the waining hours of the day."channeling" and UFO's are for the crackpots and the gullible. They don't come from the suppernatural anymore than the bible does. Maybe that is because it is a dumb idea. Maybe because it contradicts the very nature of an all loving god. Maybe cuz, the punishment dosn't fit this crime nobody commited.God forbid, maybe its an unfair punishment?

so then your alternative is as good as my belife. i.e. equal.If there is nothing you can objectively offer to weight yours over mine, then we are essentially the same.

Hangdawg13,I actually agree with this post One point though, I hope I wasn't unclear before, my problem is not with christianity inhibiting thought, but rather FUNDAMENTALIST RELIGION inhibiting CRITICAL THINKING thats my main issue.Crittical thinking involves alot of doubt, analysis, and compramise. None of these things seem to occure in the mind of a fundamentalist, so I say these things are unhealthy. It essentualy stunts ones intelectual growth.I mean, would not the christian who understands his faith, it's short commings, it's origins, be a better christian?A person with an open mind, and an accepting heart seems to me a more valuable person to any grupe, religious or otherwise.

*blink*did you just prove my point again? Just because you don't belive in god dosn't mean life has no purpose. Life has the purpose that you give it, its a rare and wonderfull thing to be alive and its a waste to squander it. I personaly find my life more fullfilled since I left christianity long ago. One thing I learned is that "I" can do anything I set my mind to, and I don't need faith in anything other than my own abilities to accomplish it.Its helped me get thrugh some tough times. I had to suck up the troubles, and keep on trucking. Taught me alot, and I didn't need a god for it.

Huh? So if you are a Christian these things bother you more?You don't think we Agnostic/Athieists care also? You don't think we give to charities and try to help?Well, I suppose christians would have to wory more. Considering that its their god which allowes all the horrors in this world to go on unabated. Actually, this is what religion does. You read a 'holy' book and you accept its content as true. Science, by definition, relies hevely on facts gained thrugh rigorous inquriy and examination.Science requires that you think about things thurghouly and objectively. There is nothing easy about this, nor is this a means for a moral "way out".As a matter of fact, Science does not deal with morality at all. Religion certainly isn't offering a unifying vision for humanity to follow. Last time I heard, it was the cause of much of the same strife you mentiond above.If anything Science, and an understanding about our world (i.e. Education) will lead humanity to a better, happier place. Yes, Creationists come to evolutionists with a handful of "just so" stories, and half-baked, crackpot, psudo-science.