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Author Topic:   Is christianity, or religion in general, a belief of convinience?
lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 169 of 206 (127602)
07-26-2004 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
07-25-2004 4:50 AM


Re: phatboy replies to Yaro:
To a Believer, God can say this statement. The difference between a Christian Believer and others is the point of reference. A Christian by definition believes in a source higher than their own wisdom or any human wisdom.
Ummm, when did God "say" this to you? If you say the Bible, you are taking some human's word that "God" talked to them and that they got it straight. Whatever higher wisdom there may or may not be, a human has to decide that it is wisdom. In other words they have to use their wisdom to evaluate it. So, it's a misrepresentation to claim that they believe in a "higher wisdom", it's self deception, as their own wisdom is what is passing judgement on the truth or falseness of this claimed "higher wisdom".
A Christian, like any other religionist relies on the authority of others who claim to have "the" truth from a "higher" authority. This is a long standing human cultural psychological situation. It has worked and continues to work for very large group cohesiveness and it does provide psychological support to individuals. This comfort has been offered here as an explanation of it's "truth". The mind uses many things effectively to provide happiness and even healing. However, humans being what they are disagree and this disagreement can become violent.
It's just not the violent conflicts between differing religions or sects alone but that is one symptom of the human origins. Now humans are clever rationalizers and very good at arguments to support their belief that they are right. For example, they don't say "I am right" they say "God is right, and I know exactly what God wants and you don't, HAH!". And then they demonize those who disagree. I mean I've read here that some of you Christians believe other religions are the result of the activity of demons.
Poor scientist, they aren't allowed to quote friend's vivid visions, hallucinations, intuitions, hunches as proof of anything. Human belief can have powerful effects on individuals and groups, but that in no way establishes the "truth" of the belief. It CAN establish the desirablity of the belief for some people.
The conversion activity is irrational or flawed logic used to sell things, religion, deordorant etc all use rhetoric that has emotional appeal to the insecurities of the ego. "Buying" a religious or any other persuasion results in a psychological satisfaction. At this point in history the value of that probably still out weights the social problems and conflicts it causes.
Religion isn't about getting to heaven or saving souls, it's about managing behaviours and feelings in this world by the use of imaginary rewards and punishments. Some would rely primarily on reward systems, other favor punishments, "threaten 'em with hellfire if they don't submit to your authority". Or worse, witness the Inquistitions, witch trials, and as mentioned here Jihads.
So, yes, religion can be helpful to people, especially depressed or substance addicted or anxious individuals. On the other the price we pay is written in the history of the wars and persecutions.
There are other approaches to relgion. Buddhism has some significant differences but that is not on topic here.
peace,
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 07-25-2004 4:50 AM Phat has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 184 of 206 (128134)
07-27-2004 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by MrHambre
07-27-2004 1:00 PM


This just proves my lifelong suspicion that religion is the ultimate non-constructible set, a feel-good black box, something capable of being absolutely anything you want it to be.
MrHambre
Yes, your suspicion seems quite correct to me.
And then once you've constructed your black box, your story of divine revelation if you are persuasive enough you can get others to accept what you constructed and to call you a prophet.
Human psychology since at least early civilization has been adapted and conditioned to this sort of thinking though. Large groups of people required uniform discipline and the priest are more efficient in most cases than soldier though you need both. So the story gets created about how the authorities rule with the backing of God(s). The priest have power as Gods representatives. The appeal of these stories even in these times among people or college education is testimony to the enduring psychology of those early times.
Now there is no good evidence for this though there are stories, visions, hunchs, feelings but these religions when they work either appeal to peoples fears or better they feel really good when they believe these stories. These emotions are much more satisfying than to think about the evidence and really one can function well in most lines of endeveor though perhaps some sciences might not offer the greatest advancements if one holds say creationist views but otherwise an individual can believe whatever irrational nonsense they like and as long as they function in work and community there is little problem.
The leadership, the pastors, priests, popes etc of course want to keep their flocks so the believers are told this is the only true religion and its also the best. The believers feels they know the truth and are members of the best faith until for some reason they may begin to suspect something and begin to rationally question these stories.
And really I personally know really nice people who are Christians, Jews, Muslims etc. I just wish this kind of psychological comfort wasn't so necessary to so many, and that some of the leadership weren't so eager for customers that they have to knock everyone elses silly beliefs whilst being unable to see that there beliefs are no different in terms of being unsubstantiated made up fairy tales.
peace,
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by MrHambre, posted 07-27-2004 1:00 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
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