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| Author | Topic: "THE EXODUS REVEALED" VIDEO | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
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Prince Lucianus Inactive Member |
Lysimachus:
Well, this was a long read.Unfortunately, I can't find the puclication by Hoffmeier anywhere, so I can't say anything about the dating. I can still say something about the best preserved wheel: The wheel (first, second, and third image) is roughly a metre in diameter and has four spokes. The frame is of wood and the entire wheel is gilded. The wheel is of a strong construction, and is probably more representative of wheels used in warfare and long distance transport..... This is an assumption based on the fact that there are no finds of similar wheels in Egypt (although these wheel types have been found in Etruria f.i).Tests have shown, that the light weight variant with 6 spokes small wheels -and I didn't say 4 spokes didn't exist, just that I did not find a picture of it- have proven to be very succesfull. So, I believe chariots were usefull, but the heavier wheels will make several advantages absolete. Furthermore, the examples given here:
prove that the basic rim structure remained the same, but the uniquely preserved (ahem) one found is more robust and bigger (in comparison with preserved wheels) and so falls outside of Hoffmeiers category. Only your own assumption that it might be a 18th century chariot build for different purposes is backing this up. I can also attack the claim that these things are actually wheels. People are looking at coral structures like this:
and claim it's a chariot wheel with iron in it (How they can spot the difference between 6 or 8 spokes is amazing). Now, I know Egytpians were using iron, but hammered iron was not known in Egypt during Thutmoses IV reign. So it might have been cast, like nails, but this is very unlikely on a chariot now is it. How did coral grow on this wooden structure BtW. It's evidently not been covered with sand, so the wood should have rotted away. About dating the exodus:
As for the Old Testament texts, of which the books of the Pentateuch are the first, there are a number of factors indicating that they are the original texts. They were written down by Moses, in part dictated directly by the Lord himself (according to the Bible), or they described EVENTS which Moses, as eye-witness could follow in detail
You mean like Moses writing down his own death  These books can not be automatically attributed to Moses. If you want to defend that case and Moller's one, explain why the city of Rameses is mentioned in Genesis and Exodus (so, as written by Moses), although it is build by Ramses the Great (roundabout) 150 years later. You know that Thutmoses IV and the city Of Rameses can not be used for the same period. Conclusion:The only way all this can be checked is by radio-carbon dating of the remaining wood or other known measurement technique. This can be done on the femur as well (what the femur is contributing as evidence, I don't know). But since the (un)fortunate has happened and we have no samples left, it can't be done. Lucy This message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-23-2004 08:00 AM This message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-23-2004 08:01 AM Bible Search Results "Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses. Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4023 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
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Lysimachus Member (Idle past 5220 days)  Posts: 380 Joined: |
PaulK
quote: Amazing. So you admit that Nassif Hassan did say this, but now since you find yourself at a loss, you are forced to revert by picking at straws and state that he "didn't" have a doctorate at the time he said it. So, if he had said it when he didn't have a doctorate, but then obtained a doctorate the next week and still hadn't changed his mind, would that mean that his statement DIDN'T COUNT? It is hard to believe that you are getting this ridiculous. Spare me some thing worthwhile to talk about. Prince Lucianus,
quote: It may be an assumption, but it is a well supported assumption seeing that there are only 11 wheels preserved in Egypt. The wheels found at the bottom of Aqaba sharply parallel with those engraved on Egyptian inscriptions, and the fact that it is well known there is an inscription concerning Thutmosis III (18th dynasty), which speaks of golden chariots in many different situations. It is repeated in the document several times: The Ancient Near East (1958) vol 1., p 175-183, editor J.B. Pritchard, Princeton University Press, Princeton, USA. Also, as you will soon find out, the hub cap styles identified also sharply parallel to the hub caps preserved in Ancient Egypt from this time.
quote: So you are assuming that simply because a small illustration shows the rims of the wheels to be the same, that this is what the illustration is trying to portrait?! This is by far the weekest argument I have heard yet. Neither Moller nor Hoffmeier are mentioning anything in regard to the basic rim structure, only to that of the number of spokes.
quote: Attacking that will be of little consequence to the overwhelming evidence let me assure you. It has been well established that a number of wheels (at least 20) lie at the bottom of the Gulf of Aqaba. I have a host of pictures taken by Moller of coral encrusted chariot wheels, and the numbers of spokes are so visible that it is an indisputable fact. In the video, The Exodus Revealed, Moller showed the underwater footage to well trained coral experts, and have concluded Moller’s theory to be right that these are indeed objects of which coral has fastened to. It also been well established that coral does not begin to grow on sand, or anything of the kind! It first attaches itself to an object, and since wood is organic material coral will attach itself to the wood, and then consume the wood leaving only the shape of that which the coral attached itself to. So your assumption that the wood should have rotted away is correct. It did rot away slowly as the coral slowly took over replacing the molecules. Eventually, coral grows to become strong and attaches itself to the surrounding coral, leaving firm chariot shaped coral objects. Divers have broken this coral with ease, and the odd shapes that exist with these coral objects do not exist elsewhere in the Gulf of Aqaba. You must be trained in order to properly identify many of these coral encrusted chariot wheels and the numbers of spokes as the scientists have done. They are qualified, we are not. Your job is to trust them, as the video has done its job at presenting these proven facts. The scientists that are contributing and support Moller’s new documentary, The Exodus Case, are listed below: Dr. Manfred BeitakEgyptologist, Professor University of Vienna, Austria, and the Austrian Archaeological Institute in Cairo, Egypt Dr. Manfred Bietak is the founder and director of the Archeological Institute’s excavation in Tel El Daba, located in the eastern Nile Delta. Dr. Bietak has uncovered the remains of a town of 20-30,000 people who are believed to have emigrated from Canaan through Palestine. Professor Ken KitchenEgyptologist, Emeritus Professor University of Liverpool, England Professor Ken Kitchen is one of the world’s leading Egyptologists and is credited for creating the structure for understanding Egyptian dynasties and their organizational order.His research interests include Egyptian and Near Eastern history, Egyptian texts, and ancient chronology. Dr. Ebba DuringArrchaeoosteological Research Laboratory Stockholm University, Sweden As head of the department of Archaeoosteology, Dr. Ebba During has been instructing graduate students, conducting research, and identifying bones for over thirty years. One of her recent projects was an osteological analysis of the human skeletal remains of the Swedish warship Kronan which exploded and sank off the east coast of the Baltic Island of Oland on June 1, 1676. Professor Alan MillardRankin Professor of Hebrew & Semitic Language University of Liverpool, England Professor Alan Millard is Rankin Professor of Hebrew and Ancient Semitic Languages at the University of Liverpool and a Fellow of the Society for Old Testament Study. His research interests lie in Semitic languages, history, and culture of the ancient Near East. He also has considerable first hand experience of archaeology, having been involved in excavations at Arpad, Petra, Nimrud, and Qadesh. Rabbi Manis FriedmanBiblical Scholar, Lecturer, Author World-renowned author, counselor, lecturer and philosopher, Rabbi Manis Friedman is a professionally ranked member of the National Speakers Association. He hosts his own critically acclaimed cable television series, Torah Forum with Manus Friedman, syndicated throughout North America. His first book, Doesn’t Anyone Blush Anymore?, was published by Harper San Francisco in 1990, and is currently in its fourth printing. Dr. Gregor HodgsonMarine Biologist, Professor (Visiting) University of California, Los Angeles; U.S.A. Dr. Gregor Hodgson is the founder and director of the Reef Check Foundation, a global network of coral experts who train volunteer scuba divers and snorklers to monitor coral reef changes around the world. Dr. Hodgson’s current research focuses on human impacts on coral reefs, coral reef management, and conservation. Source: Mahoney Media – Page not found--------------------------------------------------------------- Notice the last one. A Marine Biologist is trained to be a coral expert. He is contributing to Moller’s theories regarding the chariot wheels.
quote: You surprise me that you bring up this old argument. Obviously you did not pull that argument on me thinking that no scholar has thought of this in the past? This old argument stems back through the centuries, and new information reveals the truth concerning the city of Rameses. It is clearly evident that tradition stands strong, of which why so many are still deceived by Cecil B. Demil’s grand epoch, The Ten Commandments. Tradition is so deep rooted into people, and when it comes to countering it, you will find that it is very difficult to break people away from it when new information shows otherwise. I would have thought you would have at least taken the time to look this subject on your own before posting it, as this argument has been countered all over the web. Here is your answer for the so called proof that the Exodus took place during Rameses because he built Pithom and Raamses: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Pithom and Rameses The first bit of evidence supporting a 13th century date would seem to be Exodus 1:11. Exodus 1:11 is presumed to date the period of oppression with the building of Pithom and Rameses. The logic of the argument' runs as follows: Ra'ameses is Per Ramses, today equated with Tanis in the delta region. Tanis was abandoned by the Hyksos after their loss to Ahmase I (c. 1570 BC) afterwhich it fell into ruins. It was not until Seti I (c. 1300 1290 BC) that Tanis was reestablished. The probability of construction at Tanis before 1446 BC is doubtful. So we must assume that Rameses II was the Pharaoh of the oppression at least at its height. There are many problems with this understanding of the text. First, this understanding does not take into account other Scripture that lends information to Exodus chronology. John J. Davis suggests: it is clear that the beginning of the enslavement of Israel and the building of Pithom and Ra’amses took place before the birth of Moses. His birth apparently occurred in the latter part of the oppression period as implied by Exodus 2. We know that Moses was eighty years old at the time of the Exodus (Ex.7:7); this simply means that the construction work described in chapter one would have occurred eighty years prior to the date of the exodus. If the late date of the exodus is correct (about 1280 BC), Moses would have been born about 1360 BC, or in the later stages of the Eighteenth Dynasty. It is therefore obvious that Rameses II could not have been the Pharaoh who ordered the Israelites to build the store cities of Exodus 1:11." Secondly, the absence of the prefix Pi in regards to Rameses seems to attest to the fact that the royal residence Pi-Rameses is not in mind (especially with the presence of Pi-thom in the same phrase). The actual site of biblical Rameses has been identified throughout the centuries with Tanis, Tell el-Maskhouta, Tell er-Retebah and Pelusium.
The archaeology of these sites seem to point to a 13th century date. However, most scholars are abandoning the sites mentioned above for a site known as Qantir, located south of Tanis. Qantir was excavated by Mahmud Hamz and among his findings were five ostraca inscribed with the name "Pi-Rameses. The site of Pithom has been identified as Tell el-Maskhouta, Tell er-Retebah and recently Heliopolis (On)8 It is interesting to note that the Septuagint adds "and On" to Exodus 1:11. Though the question is not settled, the archaeological evidence 9 and the literary evidence points to either Tell er-Retebah or Heliopolis. Both these sites have existed from at least the Second Intermediate Period (c.1800 1570 BC) through the New Kingdom (c.1570 1090 BC) and would support either a 13th or 15th century date. If we postulate that the Exodus occurred in the mid fifteenth century, then how could the name of Rameses appear prior to the 19th dynasty of Egypt when Rameses reigned? Charles Aling argues that the name Rameses is known from inscriptions in the Middle Kingdom (12th dynasty) 10 Though this probably has no bearing on the city in question, it does show that the name was present before a Rameses ever was Pharaoh. A more plausible theory, is that, Rameses is a ‘modernization, of an obsolete place name added by a later scribe. This could not be so, Albright pointed out, if the identification of Rameses with Tanis was assured. The name Pi-Rameses would not have been used after 1100 BC when the name Tanis was adopted. This is not the case with Qantir. Anachronism is common in the Bible. In Genesis 14:14 we have reference to the city of Dan. Dan would not be called Dan until centuries later. During Abraham's time the city was known as Laish (or Leshem). Obviously, at the time of writing, the 'scribe' would have noticed an obsolete place name and replaced it with one that was more familiar to him.Again in Genesis 47:11, we have reference to the "land of Rameses". No scholar attempts to date this passage to the reign of Rameses II, but see it as anachronistic. If it is true for these two passages, why not for the Exodus 1:11 passage? Source: http://home.earthlink.net/~neatoguy/conqest.html--------------------------------------------------------------- I might also add that there is growing support for the dating of the 1446 BC Exodus world wide compared to other suggestions. (A.J. Hoerth (1998) Archaeology and The Old Testament, Baker Books, Grand Rapids, USA.) Moreover, 14 Carbon dating of remains of Jericho suggests the destruction to have happened around 1400 BC, tallying quite sharply with the hypothesis presented. (B.G. Wood (1990) Dating Jericho’s destruction, Biblical Archaeology Review, 5.) If you would like, I can provide you the data that astronomically pin points the approximate date of the Exodus to be 1446 BC using scripture. There are preserved ancient documents with astronomic references to points in time, that when used in conjunction with various verses from scripture, we can be pretty sure we’ve got it down pat. A broad picture is beginning to be painted before us here. There isn’t just little material to work with. Investigations coming from all sorts of angles are leading us to these correct conclusions, such as the date of the Exodus, the location of the crossing (based on well documented calculations, comparing scripture with old maps that completely obliterate the traditional theories). May you continue to enjoy this wonderful journey on the many unexplained issues regarding the Exodus accountnow for the first time being revealed to the world like never before!  This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 07-24-2004 05:38 PM ~Lysimachus
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Lysimachus Member (Idle past 5220 days) Posts: 380 Joined: |
Chariot Wheels at the Bottom of the Gulf of Aqaba
Assyrian? or of other Egyptian adopted Canaanite origin? A number of arguments have spread as to identify which ancient civilization the chariot wheels belonged to that have been found on the underwater bridge at the sea bed of the Gulf of Aqaba. One common argument critics often utilize is that the wheels are of Assyrian origin, and cannot be Egyptian. However, after careful analysis, one will discover that this argument rests upon poor speculation as no solid argument has been provided as to why they could or probably be Assyrian. This hasty, impulsive, conclusion that the wheels must be Assyrian only reveals a desperate, reactive, attempt to discredit the biblical account of the Exodus, and completely ignores several factors that critically deal with this notion. Following are several points which must be thoroughly considered as to why the wheels at the sea bed of the Gulf of Aqaba cannot be Assyrian, but more likely Egyptian: 1. The assertion that the style of wheels is seemingly Assyrian could easily indicate that of other Canaanite origin. It is well known that the chariot wheels of the Egyptians came to them via the Hyksos people, and were probably of Syrian origin. This is indicative of the fact that the seemingly Assyrian appearance of these chariot wheels is actually Egyptian, since Egyptian chariot wheels were patterned off from Syrian originsintroduced through the Hyksos. 2. Research confirms that by the beginning of the early Neo-Assyrian epoch, in the reign of Ashurnasirpal II, chariots are virtually identical to those of the latter 18th Dynasty and 19th Dynasty of Egypt. 3. Assyrians were not noted for having four-spoke chariot wheels, but utilized six-spoked chariot wheels for strength, that had wicker bodies with metal fittings, and crossed quivers that were attached to the sides. By the of Tiglath-Pileser III, however, a few generations later, chariot design had changed completely. The only period during which the machines used in Egypt and Mesopotamia were identical was during the later Egyptian New Kingdom and this early Neo-Assyrian epoch. The four-spoked gold gilded wheel discovered at the sea bed of the Gulf of Aqaba contrasts sharply with the types of chariot wheels Assyrians were noted to have. 4. One scholar said that one of the chariot parts found at the bottom of the Gulf of Aqaba is Assyrian. Does this nullify the Biblical account of the Red Sea crossing at Aqaba? Not in the slightest. Come to find out, the 18th Dynasty rulership of Egypt was engaged in war with the Assyrians, and captured Assyrian chariots were trophies of war. If it were true that one of these wheels were identified as Assyrian, it would only be confirmation of this fact. However, the fact that only one chariot part has been identified as Assyrian, but the rest Egyptian, helps to confirm a disaster of the Egyptian army at the Gulf of Aqaba. 5. The chariots identified are those of 4, 6, and 8 spoked wheels. The only time believed for this variety to exit simultaneously was during the 18th Dynasty Egypt. Any map showing the borders of Egypt during the mid to late 18th Dynasty extends all the way to, and all along the west coast of the Gulf of Aqaba. The borders of the Assyrian empire on the other hand were not noted for extending to the Gulf of Aqaba. A number of maps on the web will indicate that Assyria’s borders at its height of power never extended into the borders of the Gulf of Aqaba. If they had any influence at all in this region, it was of little significance. Two maps displaying the maximum borders of the Assyrian Empire:
This inscription helps seal the fact that the wheels found at the sea bed of the Gulf of Aqaba are most certainly from the 18th dynasty Egypt. Notice the 8 spoked chariot wheel along with the 4 spoked. This combination parallels with what has been found on the sea bedstrongly supporting that there was indeed a disaster that took place of an Egyptian army, not Assyrian. 6. Although the style of hub caps identified on a number of wheels at the Gulf of Aqaba do not match the style of the hub caps on the wheels of the chariot found in King Tutankhamun’s tomb, they clearly match the hub caps that have been preserved from war chariots used around that time. The style of the chariot found in Tutankhamun’s tomb was probably a style used for ceremonial purposes. As can be seen in the photo below, the preserved Egyptian war chariot hub caps are quite different from the wheel found in King Tutankhamun’s tomb:
Conclusion Can the chariot wheels identified on the sea bed of the Gulf of Aqaba be from that of an Assyrian army? Very unlikely. Can the chariot wheels identified on the sea bed of the Gulf of Aqaba be from that of an Egyptian army in pursuit of the Israelites at the crossing point across Nuweiba beach on the underwater land bridge? Very likely. These points in conjunction with a host of other studies concerning the traveling distance of the Israelites and the Egyptian army, the location of Mt. Sinai according to scripture, the correct location of Succoth, the number of days of travel, the distance span between Succoth and Etham, the scriptural fact that the Israelites were out of Egypt before they crossed the Red Sea (west coast of Suez and northern lakes is clearly within the Egyptian border), and a careful analysis and comparison of the biblical account of the Exodus journey all coincide astronomically as we begin to see a broad, solid, picture unfold before our eyes. If all the points are viewed on a grand scale, it will be vividly clear that the theories that have been presented regarding the Exodus account are the most supported and solid arguments ever utilized. This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 07-24-2004 05:39 PM This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 07-24-2004 05:42 PM ~Lysimachus
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Prince Lucianus Inactive Member |
First of all I'm glad to see you use C14 dating as evidence.
About Jericho:H.J. Bruins, and J. van der Plicht. 1996. The Exodus enigma. Nature 382: 213-214. states 1580 BC (with 13 year difference) using C14 dating. Doesn't seem to be corresponding well with your source. So, there's still some work to be done. About the wheels.Well. I say again, the wheels found so far are all of the thinner sort. I mean, they have a slim rim which looks as thick as two thumbs. So all you can do is make an assumption. There's nothing wrong with making an assumption, but assumptions don't prove anything. We have only pictures from graves and some buried wheels from tombs. That there were several types during Thutmoses reign might well be true. These wheels we see on pictures seem to present slim rims and slim spokes. The wheels we have from tombs also have slim rims and spokes. This golden wheel has no slim rim and spokes. It's completely against the evidence we yet have. Show me an Egyptian wheel (from the appropriate time of course) which looks like this wheel. Strange looking corals can be made by any number of objects. As soon as a wheel is found under the sand which totally looks like a wheel, then the case will be better, but pictures like these;
Don't prove anything. Take the picture from Mahoney Media – Page not found f.i (go to check out the production photos). You see a diver standing on the sandy floor with many coral shapes in the background. You're bound to find some which look like what you're looking for. Let's c14 date something or prove that one of these coral shapes is a chariot wheel, without a nice drawing of a wheel in the picture. An explanation of what the iron is doing in the wheel would also be interesting. the city of RamesesWell, you don't make it easy on yourself there. A statement: Secondly, the absence of the prefix Pi in regards to Rameses seems to attest to the fact that the royal residence Pi-Rameses is not in mind (especially with the presence of Pi-thom in the same phrase). But then you prove that it might be older because:
The archaeology of these sites seem to point to a 13th century date. However, most scholars are abandoning the sites mentioned above for a site known as Qantir, located south of Tanis. Qantir was excavated by Mahmud Hamz and among his findings were five ostraca inscribed with the name "Pi-Rameses. So, we shouldn't be looking for Pi-Rameses, but it might be older because Qantir (an older site) has five ostraca with Pi-Rameses written on them. This is very bad reasoning. Actually, scholars are still undetermined about the actual location, so let's face it. It's not found yet.So, the problem as presented still stands. Davis suggestion isn't helping you either. He does provide a date, but uses it to disprove a late date exodus. He's not disproving any statement about the fact that Rameses and Pi-thom are of a later date. Actually, Pi-thom is discovered and it was built under Ramses II. The site of Pi-thom, as identified by Naville in 1883, is to the east of the Wady Tumilat, south-west of Ismailia. This has been generally accepted and several web sites conclude that it was build by Ramses II(Christianswers or JewishEncyclopedia and several others.)The oldest name found on this site is of Ramses II. The argument against modernisation of an obsolete place name is not to the point, because we don't know if it got another name later on and we're not going to suggest that ancient biblical scholars did this all the time when we can only confirm it twice. Lucy This message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-24-2004 11:18 AM Bible Search Results "Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses. Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
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Prince Lucianus Inactive Member |
Look at this beautifull picture of Assyrian soldiers ferrying a chariot across a river on a coracle.
Looks like they might have lost a couple and Moller found them Lucy This message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-26-2004 09:48 AM Bible Search Results "Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses. Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
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Prince Lucianus Inactive Member |
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Lysimachus Member (Idle past 5220 days) Posts: 380 Joined: |
PaulK,
quote: Sometimes I feel like screaming inside when I hear you say things like this. I couldn’t even begin to elaborate how many assumptions are corroborated into this statement. Let me put it this way. You have done very little research on this matter. If you’ve read the material without watching the videos, your research is incomplete. If you’ve watched the videos without reading the material, your research is still incomplete. I’ve done both plus much more. W.A.R. was just digging in that cave last year (2003), and the Ark of the Covenant rests beyond the wall that they are in the process of securing before they continue. It’s getting close PaulK, and those Ten Commandments are going to be revealed to the world soon enough. You just wait and see what I’m talking about. I guarantee you with 100% certainty that one day you will say he was right. Mark my words. The blood sample is still preserved, and it was tested in a laboratory on the video. Many love to use the argument that Ron has not provided the sufficient evidence concerning the Ark of the Covenant. Let me make this clear; it was not meant to be that way. It is under the agreement with Israeli authorities that much of the existing evidence is to be kept top secret, for fear it will arouse all of Palestine and they do not want the place turning into a shrine. W.A.R. is going back to continue the dig (there was an inscription found at the entrance of a Cavea Babylonian cherubim representing a royal entrance), and they are digging exactly in the cave where Josephus, the Bible, and the Apocrypha (especially Maccabees) all point to the resting place of the Ark of the Covenant. Bill Fry has done a good job at providing the correct information regarding the blood samples in his updates: Page not found - Anchor Stone InternationalPage not found - Anchor Stone International Page not found - Anchor Stone International Page not found - Anchor Stone International quote: Until proven wrong we have every reason to believe. The wheels on the seabed are too aged and brittle to have been planted by Ron. This in conjunction with the fact that horse, cattle, and human bones (human femur bone discovered by Aaron Sen, a close friend of Andrew Jones) have been found intermingled with the chariot parts scattered across the seabed on the underwater land bridge. These were discoveries made by divers after Ron Wyatt died. To stretch the argument and say he planted all of this stuff is beyond human reason. Ron Wyatt didn’t plant one shred of debris at the bottom of the Gulf of Aqaba, and even if he had, it still would not negate the big picture here, since there is just too much debris being found that he never knew about.
quote: Yet again, you demonstrate your ability to properly research these subjects from an open-minded approach. In 1988, Ray Brubaker, of "God's News Behind the News" in St. Petersburg, FL., asked an electrical engineer to research Ron's claims. This independent, non-biased research on the part of Terry Johnson of Tampa, FL, included research on the molecular frequency generator. This report is attached (Appendix B) and explains in layman's terms. Also, notice that the EX NIHILO article condemning this gives no names of the scientists who supposedly built and tested these-devices. Joe Walker, of Nashville, TN. used the molecular frequency generator to help the police department locate the body of a boy drowned in a lake. (Appendix C) This instrument is not divining" but works on very solid scientific principles. Many scientists, archaeologists, engineers, etc. use them. The molecular frequency generator we use is manufactured by Cochran and Associates of Bowling Green, Ky. and costs $6,500.00- quite a high price for a "divining rod". (Appendix E) Also, the location of metal on the site with the molecular frequency generator was identical to those located by ferromagnetic and pulse induction detectors, as well as the sub-surface interface radar. So, if you want to eliminate the molecular frequency generator scans, the results are still the same. The location of metal on the site with the molecular frequency generator was identical to those located by ferromagnetic and pulse induction detectors, as well as the sub-surface interface radar.!!!!! So you can take the dowsing rods away (David Fasold who was the one who brought this equipment on to the site to use anyway) but the other metal detector results most certainly still stand. You can even see the scans on video SHOWING the PATTERN! jar,
quote: Based on what number of people? We are only talking about approx. 2 million people. This number is not far fetched. It is extremely realistic, since we are speaking of the population of an ENTIRE race here (that includes a great number of foreigners). You also aren’t taking into account how wide their line was. It could have been a very wide line. Also, where are you getting these statistics that 2 million people and animals would stretch over 450 miles long? What about Xerxes and the massive army he assembled to invade Greece during the Persian Wars? Are you going to state that the number of his army was unrealistic? The majority of sources agree that the army alleged ranged between 1.5 to 5.6 million. Some sources are only coming from the perspective of military units alone, but Herodotus includes the baggage bearers. http://www.herodotuswebsite.co.uk/xerxes.htm According to A.T. Jones, author of The Great Empires of Prophecy, he quotes and assembles numerous sources, including those of Herodotus: QUOTE:Xerxes finally took up his march toward Greece, meeting with neither check nor mischance until he came to Thermopylae. Indeed, the Thessalians warmy espoused the side of the Medes; and afterward, in the source of the wary, they were of the greatest servce to Xerxes. 2. Thermoplyae — (thermo, heat; pylae, gates,--gates of the hot springs) is a pass from Thessaly into Greece, about seven feet wide, only wide enough for a single carrage, between the high mountains and the sea; and is the only means of entering Greece by land from north or east. Here the Greeks determined to make their stand, and resist the progress of the host of Xerxes. At this point the army of Xerxes, including those brought out of Asia and those gathered in Europe, amounted to 2,641,610 fighting men. Such then being the number of the fighting men, it is my belief that the attendants who followed the camp, together with the crews of the corn-barks, and of the other craft accompanying the army, made up an amount rather above than below that of the fighting men. However, I will not reckon them as either fewer or more, but take them at an equal number. We have therefore to add the sum already reached an exactly equal amount. This will give 5,283,220 as the whole number of men brought by Xerxes, the son of Darius, as the Sepias and Thermopylae. And among all this multitude of men there was not one who, for beauty and stature, deserved more than Xerxes himself to wield so vast a power.Herodutus (Id., chaps. 186, 187.END OF QUOTE This is not to mention the fact that most scholars agree that Darius’ army at the battle of Arbela (aka Guagamela) against Alexander’s army of approx. 40-46 thousand men averaged around 1 million men. These figures are not even considering all the woman and children that are left home! And yet, look how large these figures are!!! And you’re telling me that it is very unlikely for Hebrew nation to be figured around 2 million individuals?! If there is anything unrealistic, it is your outlandish false allegations. Brian
quote: I don’t believe ONE word when you say more than half of them would be waiting to get out of Egypt. The fact is, your calculations are very unrealistic, as you can see on a satellite map the tiny Nuweiba beach ITSELF can accommodate 2-3 MILLION PEOPLE! Now take these 2 million people on that little dot of Nuweiba beach and stretch that dot out backward toward Egypt. It isn’t going to go very far. It is actually comical to watch you make these assertions, as you seem to forget they all gathered at the beach BEFORE they crossed. If these assertions that you are making are true, than anyone could make the assertion that it was very unrealistic for the vast Persian army under Xerxes to cross the Hellespont and then onto the narrow pass of Thermopylae (wide enough to carry only a SINGLE carriage), because most of the army would still be in Turkey!. The fact is, there is vast difference here. Here we have a massive desert (the Sinai Peninsula) to accommodate millions of people here, not a narrow pass. To say that the columns would be 4 or 10 people wide is ludicrous! In this vast desert we have plenty of room for very wide columnsprobably more like anywhere from 50 to 300 persons wide. Plus, you seem to forget that nowhere have we stated that they left the city of Rameses, but rather the land of Rameses. There is a big difference here. Also, the land of Rameses is the same as the land of Goshen, so when the Israelites departed from land of Rameses they did not all take off from the city, but rather all took off from the land of Rameses to gather at Succoth outside of Egypt. From this point forth, there was plenty of room in the desert to form wide and massive columns. Their next stop was to encamp at Etham (a land), at the edge of the Wilderness as depicted in the map below:
If they camped at Etham, that means they were fairly gathered in this vicinity, meaning their lines did not trail all the way back to Egypt!. From Etham they turn south into the Wadi Watir that heads toward Nuwieba beach. This would have been the only location where they would have been forced to narrow down their columns (with large numbers of Israelites waiting their turn, to enter the wadi) as they traveled to camp at the final location, before Pi-Hahiroth (on Nuweiba beach), over against Baalzephon (which is across the sea). Probably a very similar scenario to what the Persian army would have done before they crossed the Hellespont and the pass of Thermopylae. There are no ‘little problems’ after all. They can be made to look like problems, but when tested in a real life scenario, there are various plausible scenarios that are usually overlooked. sidelined
quote: I think you misunderstand me here. These rust spots are simply the stains of rust. And yes, there are a number of sources that confirm the use of Iron during the 18th dynasty. Some books you might consider looking to are thus: "Chariots and Related Equipment from the tomb of Tutankhamun" (1985) by M A Littauer and J H Crouwel "Wheeled Vehicles and the Ridden Animals in the ancient near east" (1979) by same authors above "Les Chevaux du Nouvel Empire Egyptien: Origines, Races, Harnachement" (1991) by C. Rommelaere "Chariots, Chariotry and the Hyksos" (1980) - journal of the society of for the study of Egyptian antiquities "Observations on the evolving chariot wheel in the 18th dynasty" by J K Hoffmeier (1976) "A Chariot wheel from the tomb of Amenhophis II" (1973) by A C Western"An Egyptian Wheel in Brooklyn" (1979) by M A Littauer and J H Crouwel And yes, there still could be rust stained spots after 3500 years. The metal itself will crumble away and lose its form, but the presence of imbedded grains of metal will still be present through the coralhad their been metal lined in the wood of which the coral attached itself to. All experts in coral growth with agree with this, and it has not been disputed by any experts that I know of. You are better off not pretending to be qualified by stating it cannot be when they are clearly saying it can. I will continue to address this subject in greater depth at a later date, but before then be sure to read these links for clearer information regarding these claims: Page not found - Anchor Stone InternationalPage not found - Anchor Stone International Make sure you read them CAREFULLY so you are familiar with the sequence of events. nighttrain,
quote: But the coral growth is not light. Most of the chariot remains, along with the skeletal parts, are thickly covered in coral. The thickness of the coral is not measured from the outside of the wheel to the edge of the coral, but rather the thickness of the coral overall is what is to be considered, for the coral has completely consumed the wood away. Continue by reading my response to Arachnophilia to gather more detail. However, before you continue reading, I will provide some info concerning skeletons in a sea environment so that you may correlate this information into the big package of info that we (Buzsaw, Willowtree, and myself) have been trying to present: ----------------------------------------------------------------56. Skeletons in a Sea Environment The question as to whether a skeleton can be preserved for along time in the sea is justified. Let us look at the sea environment in the vicinity of the Red Sea. Off the Mediterranean coast of Israel, there is an historical place called the Maritime Atlit site, which is about 10 km south of present day Haifa. It is the largest and best preserved prehistoric settlement that has been found on the sea-bed, and the only one that has graves (56. The New Encyclopedia of Archaeological Excavations in the Holy Land (1993) E. Stern (ed), The Israeli Exploration Society and Carta, Israel.) The reason why the settlement is found on the sea-bed (8-10 m depth) is that it was established before all the ice from the latest ice age had melted. Many thousands of years ago, the Mediterranean Sea was roughly 30 m shallower for this reason, and the settlements which were on the coast at that time are now on the sea-bed. At this place 15 have been founding graves, which represent an era before the level of the Mediterranean Sea rose to the present day sea-level, and turned the area into sea-bed. The age of these skeletons (based on C14 dating of carbon remains around the skeletons and other organic material) indicates a period of several thousand years. Complementary dating has been done via other discoveries of ceramics etc. (56. The New Encyclopedia of Archaeological Excavations in the Holy Land (1993) E. Stern (ed), The Israeli Exploration Society and Carta, Israel.) In a sea environment, similar in salt content and temperature to the Red Sea, skeletons are preserved for several thousand years. If corals grow there later on, it is because the skeletal parts are exposed. If they are lying under sediment they will not become covered in corals. Altogether, it can be said that there is a large quantity of skeletons and skeletal parts on the underwater bridge of the Gulf of Aqaba. It is highly probably that these skeletal parts represent human beings, horses and cattle. Some skeletal parts are petrified and thus probably several thousand years old. Most of the skeletal parts are thickly covered in corals. The strange thing is that the skeletons and skeletal parts are collected in heaps, and in mixtures of skeletons from humans, horses and draught animals. Obviously, a number of humans, horses and draught animals lost their lives on the same occasion, and landed in large heaps. This event lies several thousand years back in time.Dr. Lennart Moller, The Exodus Case, p228, 229. Arachnophilia,
quote: A wheel at the bottom of the Red Sea means everything, and it is not plausible in the slightest that they could be from a ship. These remains are based on the scriptural location of the crossing, based on the true location of Mt. Sinai in Gal. 4:25, and the description of Josephus. These chariot remains are in CONJUNCTION (imprint that word in your cabesa!) with SEVERAL skeletal remains INTERMINGLED in many places with the chariot remains. I will now quote Moller’s summary on the Red Sea Crossing section: THE EXODUS — A SUMMARY Part II consists of a long series of events linked to various archaeological finds. We have followed Moses and his career at the Egyptian court. The hypothesis about Moses in Egyptian history has been presented with examples from chronology, names, history, kinship, graves etc. The land of Midian, to which Moses fled, has been discussed in detail regarding its whereabouts. We have also followed the extraordinary events in Egypt prior to the beginning of the Exodus — the great march of the people of Israel. A number of important aspects such as the number of people, the route of the migration, what influenced the choice of route, encampments and aspects of time have also been discussed. The site of the crossing through the Red Sea has been described from both geographic, and technically possible aspects. Geographical names, pillars, and the point in time of the Exodus have been discussed in detail. Finally, the actual site of the Red Sea crossing has been shown to have a number of marine archaeological remains, from some sort of disaster. This disaster included a large number of animals, horses, human beings, chariots and wheels, which are lying on the sea-bed of the underwater bridge. Some skeletal parts are petrified which implies that they event took place several thousand years ago. Possibilities of identifying finds vary (because of the coral covering them), from being absolutely certain that it is a gilt wheel, for example, to having great difficulty in giving an opinion other than: these formations are different and curious. The finds are scattered over a wide area, from the west side (the coast of the Sinai Peninsula) to the east side (the coast of the north west Saudi-Arabia) and imply a very extensive disaster. With a length of approximately 14 km and a width of approximately 5 km, the total area covers 70 km. Altogether, these finds give a picture of a disaster that probably occurred at the time of what the Bible calls the Exodus: the departure of the people of Israel followed by the destruction of the Egyptian army in the Red Sea. The people of Israel are now on the other side of the Red Sea and on the way to their first goal, Mount Horeb (Sinai). Here await special events, to say the least. The Exodus now enters its second dramatic phase.Dr. Lennart Moller, The Exodus Case, p229.--------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is ANOTHER photo of a bunch of twisted wreckage on this same underwater bridge across Nuweiba beach:
Visual demonstrations are provided to help the viewer properly identify the wheels:
And here we can clearly see a pile of debris consisting of skeletons, weapons, and chariot parts. Notice the human rib cage colored in yellow, the two 6-spoked chariot wheels colored in pink at the bottom, and a host of other unnatural formations unknown to the natural coral world:
Human Femur
There is clear evidence of a massive disaster — the collapsing of two massive walls of water (probably ice) that sent a large army with all its men, horses, chariots, and food stock (cattle) to the bottom of the sea bed. Once again, let me stress: LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE. It is clear that there are just way too many odd shaped objects in this vicinity to be considered parts of debris from ships. It’s absolutely ludicrous. These are remains preserved by God for people just like you, who are doubtful like the doubting Thomas of scripture. However, what is even sadder is when after God shows these things to you and you see, you still do not believe. All of this reminds me of what Christ said: And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.Luke 16:31 God knows exactly how much he wants revealed. It tests people to see where they are truly at, and whether they truly desire in their hearts to acknowledge an all powerful, loving God, to rule supreme in their lives. It is amazing how God works. He reveals just enough evidence for the honest person who is truly seeking to know the truth, yet He also allows leeway for skepticism and criticism. This system is calculated just right to reveal the true character of people. I know that God is giving you all hear an opportunity to reconsider and evaluate your lives and believe that these things have been preserved so that you might believe in the one and all powerful living God that is revealed through these discoveries, described in the sacred scriptures. Will you take this opportunity and say I can now see that God is trying to reveal Himself to me through these discoveries, so that I might have eternal life? It can be done, because it has been done. I entreat everyone to seriously consider the benefits of experiencing a complete transformation of character in your life. It will be truly a rewarding experience. This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 07-26-2004 08:59 PM ~Lysimachus
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Lysimachus Member (Idle past 5220 days) Posts: 380 Joined: |
Gwyddyon,
quote: I fail to see exactly how getting a detailed list of all the scientists who say these things is going to help you any. Simply put, the scientists who took an interest in the Bible as being a historical document are the ones who went down there to see for themselves. The main ones would be Viveke Ponten, Lennart Moller, and Ron Wyatt. We even have World Net Daily confirming that Nassif Mohammed Hassan declared it to be of the 18th dynasty. However, we do not even need Nassif to confirm this. We can prove it on our own without anyone’s aid, simply for the fact of what the inscriptions tell us. Of all the inscriptions, it is plain and clear that there was only a SHORT period of time at the end of the 18th dynasty that 4, 6, and 8 spoked wheels were used simultaneously. You will find no scientist disputing this fact. Plain and simple. Page not found - WND The hub had the remains of eight spokes radiating outward and was examined by Nassif Mohammed Hassan, director of Antiquities in Cairo. Hassan declared it to be from the 18th Dynasty of ancient Egypt, explaining the eight-spoked wheel was used only during that dynasty around 1400 B.C. For more information, read my responses to all the others in my previous posts. There is just too much data pointing to the facts that I have been presenting. PaulK,
quote: This is what you call playing psychology on yourself. You defy all that I have said by taking words that apply to yourself, and give them to me. I have provided enough evidence, and MANY people have testified to the fact that this information is more than enough to not deny that the remains found at the bottom of the Gulf of Aqaba are indeed the remains of the Egyptian army that perished during the grand Exodus. Even Paramount Pictures admits it!!!!!! PARAMOUNT PICTURES IS CONSIDERING A REMAKE OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, BASED ON WORLD NET DAILY’S TALK ABOUT THE CHARIOT REMAINS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE RED SEA!!!!!!! Page not found - WND 2004 WorldNetDaily.com Thou shalt consider a modern version of "The Ten Commandments."That's the buzz in the movie industry, as Hollywood is contemplating production of a third version of the Bible's classic story of Moses leading the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt. According to the Hollywood Reporter, Mark Gordon, producer of "The Day After Tomorrow," is already on board to produce the remake, and screenwriter Charles Randolph is slated to meet with Paramount Pictures about writing the story. "While a new Moses movie could tap into some of the same religious fervor that blessed Mel Gibson's 'The Passion of the Christ' at the box office, Gordon and Randolph are believed to be interested in fashioning a serious, research-based treatment of the subject," says the industry magazine. Talk of the remake comes on the heels of a WorldNetDaily exclusive report about claims of actual chariot remains from the ancient Egyptian army being found at the bottom of the Red Sea, some 3,500 years after the Exodus is said to have taken place. "I believe I actually sat in an ancient chariot cab," British diver Peter Elmer told WND, referring to his time exploring a submerged item in what he describes as an underwater scrapyard. "Without question, it is most definitely the remains of the Egyptian army." "The Ten Commandments" was originally released in 1923 as a silent, mixed black-and-white footage with early Technicolor film, directed by Cecil B. DeMille and featuring Theodore Roberts and Charles de Rochefort. More than three decades later, DeMille remade the epic in a 1956 Technicolor feature starring Charlton Heston, Yul Brynner, John Derek, Vincent Price and Edward G. Robinson. It was nominated for seven Academy Awards including best picture. Also, just go to google and search for this subject about Paramount’s consideration to remake the 10 commandments. This info about the correct crossing site is starting to escalate, and Ron Wyatt left a long-lasting powerful legacy! His work is living on, and although he is dead, the world will little by little begin to see that this man was right after all. I’m telling you folks, I know what I’m talking about. It has nothing to do with pridesimply knowledge that I wish to share with you all. Why Moller’s documentary hasn’t even been released yet, and TLC still has work to do. We most certainly have some mighty goodies coming within the next decade ~Lysimachus
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