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Author Topic:   Big Bang...How Did it Happen?
Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4404 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 196 of 414 (137225)
08-26-2004 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by suaverider
08-26-2004 8:21 PM


Part II.
THE PARTICLES CHANGED DIRECTIONS AND FORMED GAS CLOUDS
The theoryGradually, the outward-racing particles are said to have begun circling one another, forming atoms. These atoms then changed direction further (this time toward one another) and formed gas clouds which then pushed together into stars.
This aspect of the stellar evolution theory is as strange as that which preceded it.
I will give you $1000 if you can show me a text book that say this. it's just not a statement of any theory I know. This also has NOTHING to do with stellar evolutionary theory, absolutely nothing.
1 - Gas molecules in outer space are widely separated. By "gas," we mean atoms of hydrogen and/or helium which are separated from one another. All gas in outer space has a density so rarified that it is far less than the emptiest atmospheric vacuum pressure bottle in any laboratory in the world! Gas in outer space is rarer (less dense; atoms more separated) than anything on earth.
Agreed. But so what. Congrats though you actually stated a fact, I'm proud of ya.
2 - Neither hydrogen nor helium in outer space would clump together. In fact, there is no gas on earth that clumps together either. Gas pushes apart; it does not push together. Separated atoms of hydrogen and/or helium would be even less likely to clump together in outer space."In the sequence of atomic weight numbers 5 and 8 are vacant. That is, there is no stable atom of mass 5 or mass 8 . . The question then is: How can the build-up of elements by neutron capture get by these gaps? The process could not go beyond helium 4 and even if it spanned this gap it would be stopped again at mass 8. This basic objection to Gamow’s theory is a great disappointment in view of the promise and philosophical attractiveness of the idea."*William A. Fowler, California Institute of Technology, quoted in Creation Science, p. 90.
My God, where did you dig this up from. The solution of this was a prediction of Fred Hoyle back in the early 1950's and experimentally verified after. There is a resonance of Carbon that allows reactions to proceed past the gap.
By the way as for the clumping. GRAVITY. Gravity is bar far the weakest force BUT when you have huge amounts of material it overcomes the others. Do the basic math, this is easy to demonstrate. Look up isothermal spheres and read.
MORE FACTS
WHICH BURY THE THEORY
Methinks thou doth jest too much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by suaverider, posted 08-26-2004 8:21 PM suaverider has not replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 414 (137226)
08-26-2004 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Eta_Carinae
08-26-2004 9:58 PM


Re: Part I.
You seem to be very angry and it seems that you are insinuating that I am not smart enough to understand how nothing can explode and do all the magical stuff that it would have had to do in order for this theory to ever happen in the first place you keep telling me to read a book your the one that spelled clue as cluw maybe you should check a few out yourself or give those drugs a break as you told me to do some of your post only stated that the answer would be to complicated to explain that's interesting.. on a simple level tell me how nothing can explode before we get to the information you just wrote because if you cant then what you said is useless. If a is impossible then there is no b or c to your theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 9:58 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 10:23 PM suaverider has replied

Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4404 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 198 of 414 (137228)
08-26-2004 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by suaverider
08-26-2004 8:21 PM


Part III.
THE OUTWARD RUSHING PARTICLES
1 - There is no way to unite the particles. As the particles rush outward from the central explosion, they would keep getting farther and farther apart from one another.
It wasn't an explosion. You are missing a big point. The expansion really only manifests itself on large scales. On small scales the expansion has little effect as gravitational potential wells dominate spacetime and so all the little Schwarzchild metrics are around and not a global Robertson Walker solution to GR. Thus this farther apart nonsense does NOT apply to atomic sizes, or even solar system sizes for that matter.
2 - Outer space is frictionless, and there would be no way to slow the particles. The Big Bang is postulated on a totally empty space, devoid of all matter, in which a single explosion fills it with outward-flowing matter. There would be no way those particles could ever slow.
Gravity would. You are really not getting basic physics. Stop now and go learn.
3 - The particles would maintain the same vector (speed and direction) forever. Assuming the particles were moving outward through totally empty space, there is no way they could change direction. They could not get together and begin circling one another.
GRAVITY GRAVITY GRAVITY my dear chap. It's a force remember. Newton's 1st and 2nd Laws. remember them, if not go learn them.
4 - There is no way to slow the particles. They are traveling at supersonic speed, and every kilometer would separate them farther from one other.
Why do you think the early universe was some near vacuum? Again GRAVITY GRAVITY GRAVITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5 - There is no way to change the direction of even one particle. They would keep racing on forever, never slowing, never changing direction. There is no way to get the particles to form into atoms or cluster into gaseous clouds. Angular momentum would be needed, and the laws of physics could not produce it.
See above. this is pure BS.
6 - How could their atomic structures originate? Atoms, even hydrogen and helium, have complex structures. There is no way that outward shooting particles, continually separating farther from each other as they travel, could arrange themselves into atomic structures.
THEY ARE NOT THAT RARIFIED. GRAVITY + EM FORCES + WEAK AND STRONG NUCLEAR. It wasn't a near vacuum.
We will now assume that, contrary to physical laws, (1) the particles magically that, contrary to physical laws, (1) the particles magically DID manage to move toward one another together, and (2) the particles COULD slow down and change directions.
Since you don't understand physical laws how can you say this. You are also confusing different eras.
Early Universe - it's all a soup of particles conitnuously interacting.
Later Universe - cloud collapse via GRAVITY.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by suaverider, posted 08-26-2004 8:21 PM suaverider has not replied

Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4404 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 199 of 414 (137229)
08-26-2004 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by suaverider
08-26-2004 10:15 PM


I misspelled because my laptop keyboard sucks.
It was not an explosion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm not angry, more amused than anything.
Occasionally I have to say too complicated because I am not typing out a multipage response where I would have to start with really basic physics and move up. that would take days whereas there are intro books you can get on this stuff + websites.
You really haven't even got the high school physics down so how am I supposed to in a paragraph explain general relativistic Big Bang solutions to you + baryonogenesis and nucleosynthesis + astrophysical magnetohydrodynamics + stellar evolution + etc etc.
Your post addressed topics that would cover 6 or 7 300 page text books to cover adequately.
I could give you a list of books but it seems you are coming from a lower level than that.
What is your background and/or age?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by suaverider, posted 08-26-2004 10:15 PM suaverider has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by suaverider, posted 08-26-2004 10:42 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4404 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 200 of 414 (137235)
08-26-2004 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by suaverider
08-26-2004 8:21 PM


Part IV
1 - The Big Bang theory is based on theoretical extremes. It may look good in math calculations, but it can’t actually happen. A tiny bit of nothing packed so tightly together that it blew up and produced all the matter in the universe. Seriously now, this is a fairy tale. It is a bunch of armchair calculations, and nothing else. It is easy to theorize on paper. The Big Bang is a theoretical extreme, just as a black hole is. It is easy to theorize that something is true, when it has never been seen and there is no definitive evidence that it exists or ever happened. But let us not mistake Disneyland theories for science.
It wasn't packed. It didn't explode.
2 - Nothingness cannot pack together. It would have no way to push itself into a pile. It would have no way to push itself into a pile.
Who said nothingness. It wasn't pushed or packed. That implies an external spacetime present.
3 - A vacuum has no density. It is said that the nothingness got very dense, and that is why it exploded. But a total vacuum is the opposite of total density. It is said that the nothingness got very dense, and that is why it exploded. But a total vacuum is the opposite of total density.
Actually a vacuum has an energy density. Measured in the Casimir effect where the boundary conditions of the vacuum are changed in a topological sense.
No one says nothingness became dense.
Do you see why I am having problems relating everything you need in these posts. You are coming from a background of no understanding. that is not an insult but a statement of fact.
You are in posession of a CARTOON version of the Big Bang that is not present in any sciene book. I'm sorry but you got a fake version that is silly.
4 - There would be no ignition to explode nothingness. No fire and no match. It could not be a chemical explosion, for no chemicals existed. It could not be a nuclear explosion, for there were no atoms! No fire and no match. It could not be a chemical explosion, for no chemicals existed. It could not be a nuclear explosion, for there were no atoms!
Again it was not an explosion. You are thinking in an everyday sense when you use words like ignition. It's not a bloody firework!
And I sure don't have time to give a quantum mechanics or heaven forbid a M-theory lecture.
Thats not a cop out, I have a life to live and I would like to live it and not be one here for 25 yeas.
5 - There is no way to expand it. How can you expand what isn’t there? Even if that magical vacuum could somehow be pulled together by gravity, what would then cause the pile of emptiness to push outward? The "gravity" which brought it together would keep it from expanding.
This is assuming a prior spacetime. Google inflatons, quintessence, inflationary cosmology etc etc etc.
6 - Nothingness cannot produce heat. The intense heat caused by the exploding nothingness is said to have changed the nothingness into protons, neutrons, and electrons. First, an empty vacuum in the extreme cold of outer space cannot get hot by itself. Second, an empty void cannot magically change itself into matter. Third, there can be no heat without an energy source. The intense heat caused by the exploding nothingness is said to have changed the nothingness into protons, neutrons, and electrons.
Your word nothingness not mine. Google what i said earlier.
7 — The calculations are too exacting. Too perfect an explosion would be required. On many points, the theoretical mathematical calculations needed to turn a Big Bang into stars and our planet cannot be worked out; in others they are too exacting. Knowledgeable scientists call them "too perfect." Mathematical limitations would have to be met which would be next to impossible to achieve. The limits for success are simply too narrow.
Is this an appeal from difficulty? Big Bang has NOTHING to do with STAR and PLANET formation. This is silly and a common Creationist piece of crap.
Show me a scientist who says that.
Most aspects of the theory are impossible, and some require parameters that would require miracles to fulfill. One example of this is the expansion of the original fireball from the Big Bang, which they place precisely within the narrowest of limits. An evolutionist astronomer, *R.H. Dicke, says it well:
"If the fireball had expanded only .1 percent faster, the present rate of expansion would have been 3 x 103 times as great. Had the initial expansion rate been 0.1 percent less, the Universe would have expanded to only 3 x 10-6 of its present radius before collapsing. At this maximum radius the density of ordinary matter would have been 10-12 grm/m3, over 1016 times as great as the present mass density. No stars could have formed in such a Universe, for it would not have existed long enough to form stars."*R.H. Dickey, Gravitation and the Universe (1969), p. 62.
So. It only needs to have occurred once. this is a resort to those stupid probabilty arguments Creationists use that are useless since you don't know the a priori parameter space to make them.
8 - Such an equation would have produced not a universe but a hole. *Roger L. St. Peter in 1974 developed a complicated mathematical equation that showed that the theorized Big Bang could not have exploded outward into hydrogen and helium. In reality, St. Peter says the theoretical explosion (if one could possibly take place) would fall back on itself and make a theoretical black hole! This means that one imaginary object would swallow another one!
Well it didn't explode so i guess that model sucks. Thats an out of context quote if I ever saw one. Get me the whole quote.
9 - There is not enough antimatter in the universe. This is a big problem for the theorists. The original Big Bang would have produced equal amounts of positive matter (matter) and negative matter (antimatter). But only small amounts of antimatter exist. There should be as much antimatter as matterif the Big Bang was true.
Wow you icked an interesting one. You misstate the problem for models but it is true that the imbalance is not well understood. We know CP violating reactions but not the ones that occurred in the Big Bang.
"Since matter and antimatter are equivalent in all respects but that of electromagnetic charge oppositeness, any force [the Big Bang] that would create one should have to create the other, and the universe should be made of equal quantities of each. This is a dilemma. Theory tells us there should be antimatter out there, and observation refuses to back it up."*Isaac Asimov, Asimov’s New Guide to Science, p. 343.
This is not a true statement of antimatter. See above comment too.
"We are pretty sure from our observations that the universe today contains matter, but very little if any antimatter."*Victor Weisskopf, "The Origin of the Universe," American Scientist, 71, p. 479.
Do you how old these quotes are?
10 - The antimatter from the Big Bang would have destroyed all the regular matter. This fact is well-known to physicists. As soon as the two are produced in the laboratory, they instantly come together and annihilate one another.
Not if you have a CP violating reaction that generates an asymmetry. Duh!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by suaverider, posted 08-26-2004 8:21 PM suaverider has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by 1.61803, posted 08-26-2004 10:44 PM Eta_Carinae has not replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 414 (137236)
08-26-2004 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Eta_Carinae
08-26-2004 10:23 PM


Re: I misspelled because my laptop keyboard sucks.
I could give you a list of books but it seems you are coming from a lower level than that.
What is your background and/or age?
Typical evolutionist talk IM smart your not so you cant understand why I'M right that's great. OK however you say it happened if it exploded or slowly happened you are saying you believe that from total nothingness all That we see came from nothing. That's what I want you to try to explain What proof of this can you show? do you believe it only because someone told you it was true. And I have only seen explosions to cause destruction never perfect order to where life can come to be from it. But my question remains how can all we see come from nonexistence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 10:23 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 10:52 PM suaverider has replied
 Message 220 by AdminNosy, posted 08-27-2004 3:32 AM suaverider has not replied
 Message 223 by coffee_addict, posted 08-27-2004 11:41 AM suaverider has replied

1.61803
Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 202 of 414 (137237)
08-26-2004 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Eta_Carinae
08-26-2004 10:41 PM


Re: Part IV
Hi Eta, I am sure glad you have some free time to spare of late.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 10:41 PM Eta_Carinae has not replied

Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4404 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 203 of 414 (137240)
08-26-2004 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by suaverider
08-26-2004 10:42 PM


Did you read...
how many times I typed it ws not an explosion.
I was asking to ascertain your age and /or education level in the sciences because forgetting about the Big Bang when you post the nonsense about angular momentum or collapsing gas then it is obvious you don't know the basics of physics. If you think that is an insult then you are in for a rude awakening in the real world in any field.
The question about coming from nonexistence is really a philosophical one and not really a scientific one.
Do you know why the Big Bang Theory came into being?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by suaverider, posted 08-26-2004 10:42 PM suaverider has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by suaverider, posted 08-26-2004 11:03 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 414 (137244)
08-26-2004 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Eta_Carinae
08-26-2004 10:52 PM


Re: Did you read...
I know the big bang never happened so I don't have to worry about it.
The question about coming from nonexistence is really a philosophical one and not really a scientific one.
So in other words your theory is based on philosophy and tells me its philosophical and not scientific thank you for your information I thought we were talking about science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 10:52 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 11:09 PM suaverider has replied

Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4404 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 205 of 414 (137247)
08-26-2004 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by suaverider
08-26-2004 11:03 PM


Ok you're not interested in learning...
that much is obvious with statements like 'you know'. If 'you know' how come you don't even know basic high school senior physics like angular momentum conservation?
I would think someone 'who knows' would know that.
The philosophy comment was addressing the common question where did the Big Bang come from? Well that is not a question physics at this time (and maybe ever) can answer.
But physics can ask and answer questions about what happens after something that Genesis does a piss poor job of doing.
By the way you have not answered 2 things I asked:
Do you know why the Big bang theory came about?
What is your background, especially with your 'I know' arrogance?
This message has been edited by Eta_Carinae, 08-26-2004 10:10 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by suaverider, posted 08-26-2004 11:03 PM suaverider has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by suaverider, posted 08-26-2004 11:32 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 206 of 414 (137250)
08-26-2004 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Eta_Carinae
08-26-2004 11:09 PM


Re: Ok you're not interested in learning...
If 'you know' how come you don't even know basic high school senior physics like angular momentum conservation?
You seem to be Stating that YOU KNOW What I do and do not know by saying I don't even know basic high school senior physics like angular momentum conservation. So I will let you tell me I guess
The philosophy comment was addressing the common question where did the Big Bang come from? Well that is not a question physics at this time (and maybe ever) can answer.
Believe me I know. You don't have a beginning to your faith because Some guy that wasn't there just said what if this happened and here we are with you saying you don't really no how nothing can create all things with order but you believe it any way that's some strong faith you have.
But physics can ask and answer questions about what happens after something that Genesis does a piss poor job of doing.
show me where genesis does this bad job,.
By the way you have not answered 2 things I asked:
Do you know why the Big bang theory came about?
What is your background, especially with your 'I know' arrogance?
#1 Again I know that the big dud didn't happen look around at the order and precision think about it.
#2 I do not want you to know my back ground I don't know you. You May be a psycho not saying you are but for peace of mind.
with your 'I know' arrogance?
You were rude to me first telling me to read a book I can dish it right back but I want to show the flaws in your theory not you I want you to see the light. I do know The big dud is false with common sense I can see proof all around all this was designed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 11:09 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 11:42 PM suaverider has replied
 Message 208 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 11:46 PM suaverider has replied

Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4404 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 207 of 414 (137253)
08-26-2004 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by suaverider
08-26-2004 11:32 PM


Re: Ok you're not interested in learning...
Could you use the quote facility. Place what you want to quote between [ qs ] and [ /qs ] without the spaces in the brackets.
Why do you think you understand this stuff when you do make serious errors in the basics? How is this rude to point this out? If I said Sammy Sosa was a great basketball player it would not be rude for you to point out that he is a baseball player and hence I don't know baseball very well.
Do you know the origin of the Big Bang Theory or are you going to dodge this question again?
I was asking for your background in the sense of age and/or science background not your name and address. Geez!
I said read a book (or 7) because how can someone give you detailed responses to the several dozen comments you made. I'd be typing several thousand words over the next two days, I don't think that is likely to happen.
Again, do you know why the Big bang theory came about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by suaverider, posted 08-26-2004 11:32 PM suaverider has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by suaverider, posted 08-26-2004 11:59 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4404 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 208 of 414 (137254)
08-26-2004 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by suaverider
08-26-2004 11:32 PM


i just saw your profile..
it lists your homepage as drdino Kent Hovind. Well since I assume you are not him why don't you go to answers in genesis website and see what they say about Dr Dino. And they are Creationists and basically call him a liar or deluded or both.
That website should have a goverment mental health warning and be off limits to those under 18.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by suaverider, posted 08-26-2004 11:32 PM suaverider has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by suaverider, posted 08-27-2004 12:03 AM Eta_Carinae has replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 209 of 414 (137256)
08-26-2004 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Eta_Carinae
08-26-2004 11:42 PM


Re: Ok you're not interested in learning...
How is this rude to point this out? If I said Sammy Sosa was a great basketball player it would not be rude for you to point out that he is a baseball player and hence I don't know baseball very well.
True but it would be rude to say Sammy sosa needs to read some books on hitting baseball's Because I think he isn't very educated in doing this. (opinion)
Do you know the origin of the Big Bang Theory or are you going to dodge this question again?
My point is there was no origin to the big bang. How can I dodge stating the origin of something that didn't happen?
I was asking for your background in the sense of age and/or science background not your name and address. Geez!
I don't see how that is important what does it matter will that knowledge help you in proving the points you are trying to make? I am more comfortable with us staying strangers. (you can call me suave though)
I said read a book (or 7) because how can someone give you detailed responses to the several dozen comments you made. I'd be typing several thousand words over the next two days, I don't think that is likely to happen.
You couldn't show me how your theory even started if a plain can't get off the ground it cant fly same as your theory. Wake up before its to late. so lets address this point first not the other 12.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 11:42 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-27-2004 12:10 AM suaverider has replied

suaverider
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 414 (137257)
08-27-2004 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Eta_Carinae
08-26-2004 11:46 PM


Re: i just saw your profile..
That website should have a goverment mental health warning and be off limits to those under 18.
Well I don't think its any crazier than thinking a rock came alive (that came from nothing)and from that non thinking hunk of crud here I am. Talking and everything

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-26-2004 11:46 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Eta_Carinae, posted 08-27-2004 12:13 AM suaverider has replied

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