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Author
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Topic: Come and get me, right wingers!
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Re: Ok
GN writes: But I am confused why you say that a rule will be no scripture quoting... especially when debating the accuracy of the Bible.
When some people wanted to abolish slavery, the religious nuts at the time pointed some passages in the bible to "prove" that god endorsed slavery. When some people wanted to give women the right to vote, the religious nuts at the time pointed to some passages in the bible to "prove" that god meant for women to be inferior to men. When some people wanted to give blacks and all other races the same basic rights that white Americans had and to end segregation once and for all, the religious nuts at the time pointed to some passages in the bible to "prove" that god wanted different races to be seperate. Now, when some people want homosexuals to have the right to get married, the religious nuts of our time are pointing out some bible passages to "prove" that god condemns homosexuality. My point is you can use the bible to "prove" just about anything, whether it's right or not.
The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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I just have 1 question for you. Why be a preacher of a certain religion if you're going to admit that other religions could be right?
The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Re: Ok
GN writes: Well there is a huge difference between the passages about slavery, races, women, and the passages about homosexuality.
That's what they said every generation. The ones that condemned slavery but endorsed segregation said the same thing you just said. Have you ever been to a mental hospital? Well, I have. Some of them are absolutely convinced that they are the sane ones and the rest of us are the nutcases.
Anyways in my question about not using scripture, I was thinking more along the lines of, if (repeat, if) you can show that the Bible is from God, then why shouldn't you be able to use passages from it? And how can you show that the Bible is from God without looking at what the Bible says, quoting some passages, examining them, etc?
I'm sorry, but that really sounds like circular reasoning to me. I'm sure you can write 100 pages of the following sentence: The bible is from god because it says so in the bible.
The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Well, I guess I'll just have to put you back on my hitlist. Actually, you've inspired me to want to become a preacher of atheism. Anyhow, peace!
The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Hangdawg13 writes: I was not attempting to lay a guilt trip on you, but rather to find out what you were going to teach? From where are you going to gain your wisdom to feed to your flock? Surely you want to teach the truth. So what truth are you going to teach, and how do you know it's the truth? If your teaching comes from yourself, it is human and flawed and I could care less what you say. If your teaching comes from scriptures which you admit are errant, then why should I sit and listen to your speculations about what the truth MAY be?
May I suggest we just toss out the bible completely? Heck, let's toss out religion. We have proven that some things in the bible are not truths (flat Earth, slavery, etc.). So, it proves that the bible is at least not completely true. Why should we take the whole thing seriously, then?
The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-15-2004 11:35 PM | | Hangdawg13 has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 41 by Jasonb, posted 08-16-2004 8:41 AM | | coffee_addict has replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Message 43 of 174 (134321)
08-16-2004 12:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 41 by Jasonb
08-16-2004 8:41 AM
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Jasonb writes: The Bible doesn’t say the world is flat, in fact: Isaiah 40:22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;
Um... a circle is a 2 dimensional thing and is always flat. it is to this very passage that I was talking about.
I am assuming you are saying that slavery was not a 'truth' morally. That can hardly be used to show the bible is not 'true’. Leviticus 25:44 states, "Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you buy them from among the neighboring nations. Leviticus 25:45, 46 states, "You may also buy them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slavesyou may own as chattels, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen."
The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by Jasonb, posted 08-16-2004 8:41 AM | | Jasonb has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 47 by Jasonb, posted 08-16-2004 12:59 PM | | coffee_addict has replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Message 55 of 174 (134392)
08-16-2004 3:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 47 by Jasonb
08-16-2004 12:59 PM
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Jasonb writes: Semantics? The Bible is untrue because of semantics? Dig deeper man.
Think deeper? A circle is a circle is a circle is a circle is a circle. If the bible is always true about everything, why the hell didn't it say "spere-like"?
In what context is the word slave being used here? Does our connotative picture of slaves effect how we read this passage? Was the social context the same? Did slave mean the same thing then as it does today? Was the stigma of slavery the same as it is today? What was the alternative to being a slave in that time, starvation, conscription? Does bondservant clear things up? God says we are his slaves, it that wrong? Does the New Testament help clear things up? And finally is the Bible untrue if it condones slavery?
According to my handy dandy Webster's New World Dictionary, a slave is a human being who is owned as property by another. The bible is absolutely untrue because it condones slavery. Why? Slavery is evil. The moment you realize just how evil slavery is, you will see that there are some things the bible condones that are as evil as genocide. Like the frog said, today's definition of slavery fits perfectly with the definition back in biblical times. Let me take this a little deeper. When some people wanted to end slavery in America, it was people like you that pointed to the bible and says god condones slavery. Just how far are you willing to go to justify your faith? The bible is a poor moral guidance. It is a poor scientific book. It can be used to justify just about every evil deed known to man. Why want to continue to have faith in it?
The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by Jasonb, posted 08-16-2004 12:59 PM | | Jasonb has replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Message 58 of 174 (134454)
08-16-2004 7:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 56 by Jasonb
08-16-2004 4:29 PM
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Jasonb writes: I cannot defend the actions of all Christians through all time, but don’t forget that the Abolition movement in England and in the Northern US was a Christian movement. There are many writings by many theologians of the time that said as much.
Yes, but those christians were the ones that knew better than to take the bible literally, unlike you.
Also don’t forget that people who wanted to maintain slavery also often quoted scientists such as Darwin as proof.
I think you are refering to the social darwinism that people cooked up to justify their wickedness. At best, they were quote mining scientists. If you take the words of scientists literally, you would find that they only deal with science, not social studies. However, if you take the bible literally, you would find the worst of all evils mankind has ever done in our history.
If this is your opinion then so be it.
It's just not my opinion, it's a fact. It's simple! (1) Leviticus condones slavery. (2) Leviticus is part of the bible. (3) Slavery is evil. (4) The bible condones evil deeds. What more do you want?
The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by Jasonb, posted 08-16-2004 4:29 PM | | Jasonb has not replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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It never ceases to amaze me the excuses people come up with to justify evil.
contracycle writes: Classical slavery was usually a form of social punishment rather than the rendering of a person into private property.
But this is obviously not the case written in Leviticus: Leviticus 25:44 states, "Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you buy them from among the neighboring nations.
No I'm sorry tyhat has nto been demonstrated. This issue of one universal definition of slavery has become something of a bugbear of mine becuase of the frequency with which people make that point. That fact that a translationm of the bible into english uses the same term as was used in 20th centuryt slavery does not mean that was the intent of the original author. You would have to demonstrate that the actual material conditions of biblical slaves are identical to those of the triangle slave trade, and I seriously doubt that can be done.
This is like saying the Cambodian genocide wasn't really a genocide because they didn't use the gas chambers. This is also like saying the Nazis didn't really use slave laborors to build their V-2 rockets because they didn't use the triangle slave trade. Slavery is slavery: treating people like property. Here is another analogy. It is ok to discriminate against Chinese immigrants but it is not ok to discriminate against blacks simply because the Chinese came here willingly. See anything wrong with this?
But it is simply not true that all slavery in all times and places is the same.
Of course not. However, one universal definition remains: treatment of people like property. If god was all knowing back during biblical times, then he should have known that slavery, regardless of forms or specifics, is evil no matter what. Please read that Leviticus passage again and particularly pay attention to the big words.
The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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contracycle writes: A piece of advice: remove foot before opening mouth.
Let us assume that I've been having my foot in my mouth. In that case, then you must have been having your genital covering your good eye. Anyway, I'm not that flexible. I think there's been a miscommunication between us somewhere. Let me make it clear once and for all. Technically, the triangle slave trade was different than the slave trade in classical times. However, the spirit of it and the immorality of it remained the same. When I said they were the same, I meant the immorality of it, not the technical parts. I was fully aware of how slavery worked in classical times, and I am still convinced that it was as evil as it was during the 18th century. It ain't matter how the a person becomes a slave (someone else's property), it is still evil. Thus, my sense of morality is superior to that of Leviticus. Therefore, I don't have to give a rat's arse about what Leviticus has to say. Capice?
And I allege that wage slavery is evil, but I doubt you'll let me get away with that semantic device. Please do some study on actual conditions in the ancient classical world instead of propjecting your simplisitic assumptions onto them.
Like I said, I don't care what kind of condition the slaves in the classical periods were in, slavery was, is, and always will be evil. I don't care if the slaves were treated like kings, it was as evil as the triangle slave trade. That is why I compared it to the technicality of of genocide. Just because the Cambodian genocide wasn't carried out with gas chambers doesn't mean it was any less evil than the Holocaust.
The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 71 by contracycle, posted 08-19-2004 6:28 AM | | contracycle has not replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Message 104 of 174 (136693)
08-25-2004 2:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 99 by Trump won
08-24-2004 7:18 PM
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Re: hey
moo writes: "A historical context is always needed. The chosen people were very recently the enslaved during the time the books where slavery is condoned are talking about. When a nation was defeated the only way the remaining people of that nation would've been spared is if they became slaves. You could consider it justice for the formally enslaved Israelites to enslave their former captors. This type of slavery is quite a different kind of slavery from slavery as we've known it in America. The chosen people had to be delivered, it was his will.
Oh zeus, not another hardheaded christian who likes to justify evil.
The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 99 by Trump won, posted 08-24-2004 7:18 PM | | Trump won has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 108 by Trump won, posted 08-25-2004 3:17 PM | | coffee_addict has not replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Re: Charles Knight
prophex writes: ...respond AsAp.
Um... he has a life outside of this forum, you know. Not everybody has as much free time as you.
The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 144 by joshua221, posted 08-26-2004 1:30 PM | | joshua221 has replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Re: Charles Knight
moo writes: hahaha dood you have over 1000 posts, I find that funny you say that.
I am a physics major. I am currently taking 5 classes, but I plan to add in another class. 2 of the classes require a lot of writing (English and philosophy). 2 of the classes require a lot of studying and thinking (physics). My fifth class is geography and it is crammed into half a semester (meaning it is from 6 to 8:50 Tuesdays and Thurdays). Factors to why I have so many posts: I've been here a very long time, I sometimes get bored from studying or writing papers and come here every once in a while to prevent myself from shooting myself in the head, etc.
I guess I see why, jumping into other people's conversations, and adding your thoughts can get that many I guess.
This is a public forum. I'm just amazed jar and some other people have the patience to deal with you. I've been reading your posts and, to my standard, they are immature.
The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 150 by Trump won, posted 08-26-2004 4:21 PM | | Trump won has replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Message 158 of 174 (137343)
08-27-2004 11:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 157 by ramoss
08-27-2004 9:41 AM
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Re: Charles Knight
True. If he comes back and start saying something like, "Only 5 classes? I must be better than you because I have 7 high school classes...." But seriously, I don't know how this guy gets through life with that attitude. I don't know how he could possibly learn anything in school, since he seems to "know" more than his teachers. I was arrogant in high school, but at least I knew that not everyone was as dumb as I was.
The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 157 by ramoss, posted 08-27-2004 9:41 AM | | ramoss has not replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 508 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Message 170 of 174 (138667)
08-31-2004 11:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 167 by joshua221
08-30-2004 2:48 PM
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prophex writes: where are you lam??
Huh?
The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 167 by joshua221, posted 08-30-2004 2:48 PM | | joshua221 has not replied |
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