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Author Topic:   evolution vs. creationism: evolution wins
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 310 (133648)
08-13-2004 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by crashfrog
08-13-2004 4:19 PM


quote:
"1 + 1 = 2" is only true for those people who have assumed that the axioms of mathematics are true.
And 1 + 1 = 2 is only true if you assume base 10 math. In binary the answer is 10. Sorry, couldn't help it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by crashfrog, posted 08-13-2004 4:19 PM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 92 of 310 (137491)
08-27-2004 6:19 PM


Bump
for jrtjr1.
Message 90 or 87, if you please; they mostly say the same thing.

JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4333 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 93 of 310 (140027)
09-05-2004 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
08-11-2004 11:10 AM


First, please do not take what I am about to say personally
Dear Jar,
It is not my intention to offend or ridicule others; now with that in mind.
No matter how a word is misused {I.E. in slang} the proper definition of the word does not change so much that the original use is incorrect. {At lest over relatively short periods of time, say one or two hundred years historically} Also, if more people had been properly taught in school they would know that a Dictionary is used to help define words.
Unfortunately, over the last say forty years or so public schools have used the whole word method of teaching English, which, from what I’ve heard, is fine for teaching some other languages. This method, however, has repeatedly proven ineffective at teaching English.
The sad thing is that even now, after the whole word method has proven wholly inadequate for teaching English, the public school system still, on the whole, refuses to teach Phonics; which is, by the way, the old standard of teaching English.
Here is an example:
I went to school from roughly 74’ to 86’, {Yes, I am a high school dropout} in my high school years I was, what has been called, a functional illiterate. Even today, I could not spell my way out of a hat with out spell check. However, my second year of ninth grade I went to, what at the time was a new, magnet school. That year I got two hour a day of Phonetic teaching in the English language.
In that one year alone, with out any effort on my part, I learned the basics of reading. Though I dropped out two years later I had learned enough about reading that, when I found it necessary to read, I was able to bring my reading level from somewhere around third of fourth grade (which is where it was, when I dropped out) to at least twelfth grade.
Please note, I am not putting all of the blame for my lack of reading and writing skills on the public school system, there were other mitigating circumstances. However, if Phonics could teach a disinterested teen in one year what the whole word method could not teach in ten years, it seams pretty obvious which one is better at teach English.
O.K. I realize I’ve gone off on a tangent. My apologies, I’ll step down from my Phonics Soap box.
Now, where were we? O’ ya. On your second point, I have a question you may be able to answer. Why do so many people believe that just because they think that something is a certain way that that some how makes it true?
Like in the example that you quoted of mine. Do you literally believe that one day some kid, somewhere, is going to go outside in the freezing snow stick his tongue to a frozen metal pull, and not get it stuck?
The fact that someone chouses to not believe a given fact, in no way alters that fact. If I chouse to not believe that gravity pulls me {a relatively small object} toward the Earth {a relatively large object}, and jump from the top floor of the Empire State Building with nothing on but my skives, my lack of belief is not going to save me from ending up as squashed bug food.
On your last point, which is really a continuation of your second point, but I would like to reply to your statement, Every single scientific theory is like that. And they all get tested continuously, generation after generation.
Actually, I doubt that anyone is wasting their time trying to figure out whether or not the law of gravity, or any of the other basic laws of physic is still true/factual. We take them for granted, sure we are still refining our understanding of these, and other, laws, however, the laws are no longer questioned. Do not get me wrong here, there are people out there that will, like the kid who couldn’t keep his tongue to himself, experiment just to see if this law or that is still in effect, but, here again, that does not change the status of these and other facts.
The only way to correctly say that something is not a FACT is to prove that it is untrue. {I.E. It does not conform to the stated definition of what a fact it} For example:
There were those who, even today, believe that the Earth is flat. This was a fact, as far as they were concerned. Today we know that this is not true, we have proven it untrue, and therefore it is not a fact. If you were to prove that gravity does not hold us to the earth, then, and only then, could you correctly say that the law of gravity is not a fact.
So, I have stated that, If you’re up north, in the dead of winter, and it’s blow freezing, and you stick your tong to a metal pole, out side, it will get stuck there. is a fact. (Again please, do not try this one at home; or at all, for that matter) The only way you can correctly say No, it is not a fact is to give evidence to the contrary. If that evidence is strong enough then you can prove that what I said in wrong {I.E. Not factual, untrue, no so, a lie, a deception, an untruth}. Until that day, however, the fact remains true.
Simply stated, an opinion has no bearing on, does not influence what is true or factual.
Fact: 2 a thing that has actually happened or that is really true; thing that has been or is 3 the state of things as they are; reality; actuality; truth [Fact as distinct from fancy] (Webster’s New World College Dictionary, third Edition, 1997)
Truth: 2that which is true; statement, ect. That accords with fact or reality 3an established or verified fact, principle, ect. (Webster’s New World College Dictionary, third Edition, 1997)

John3: 16, 17

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 08-11-2004 11:10 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by crashfrog, posted 09-05-2004 4:34 PM JRTjr has seen this message but not replied
 Message 95 by jar, posted 09-05-2004 5:08 PM JRTjr has seen this message but not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 94 of 310 (140113)
09-05-2004 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by JRTjr
09-05-2004 1:32 AM


Actually, I doubt that anyone is wasting their time trying to figure out whether or not the law of gravity, or any of the other basic laws of physic is still true/factual.
Do you think that, if they changed or stopped working for an hour, no one would notice?
Every time we make predictions and model behavior based on the laws of physics, we're testing them.
There were those who, even today, believe that the Earth is flat. This was a fact, as far as they were concerned. Today we know that this is not true, we have proven it untrue, and therefore it is not a fact.
Ok, but then, you're using the word "fact" differently than the way you started out using it; everybody knows that our models of reality - our conception of what is "factual" - is not the same thing at all as reality itself; as what is really factual.
That's all we're saying.
Until that day, however, the fact remains true.
How can something be true if later, it's proven false? "True" implies eternity; you need to use a much less loaded term. We prefer "tentatively accepted."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by JRTjr, posted 09-05-2004 1:32 AM JRTjr has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 310 (140119)
09-05-2004 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by JRTjr
09-05-2004 1:32 AM


Re: First, please do not take what I am about to say personally
Do you literally believe that one day some kid, somewhere, is going to go outside in the freezing snow stick his tongue to a frozen metal pull, and not get it stuck?
Whether or not the tongue gets stuck is not the issue. The important things is that even the well known, well researched things need to be tested, and every generation of kids will test that very fact.
The topic here is "evolution vs. creationism: evolution wins" and that is pretty much settled. That things evolve was pretty much resolved long before Darwin published his theory. All the evidence out there seems to show Evolution as been as close to fact as gravity.
The Theory of Evolution, the explanation of HOW evolution happened though is still very much tenative. It is the best explanation we've found yet but it is still being modified and refined as more and more data is collected.
So Evolution is very close to something that could be called factual. On the otherhand, the Theory of Evolution is not fact, but still very tenative.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by JRTjr, posted 09-05-2004 1:32 AM JRTjr has seen this message but not replied

MaxAug
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 310 (148879)
10-10-2004 12:16 PM


since theres no unbiased in this type of debate you should read both sides and try to refute the other, with info you collect at your chosen side/beliefs.
atheist/evolutionist: talk origins.
theist/creationist: answers in genesis and harun yahia network.

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by crashfrog, posted 10-10-2004 1:05 PM MaxAug has replied
 Message 99 by AdminNosy, posted 10-10-2004 4:31 PM MaxAug has not replied
 Message 100 by AdminNosy, posted 10-10-2004 4:31 PM MaxAug has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 97 of 310 (148898)
10-10-2004 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by MaxAug
10-10-2004 12:16 PM


since theres no unbiased in this type of debate you should read both sides and try to refute the other
Here's an even better idea. Why don't we find out what the facts say?
atheist/evolutionist: talk origins.
Evolution isn't atheism, and the talk origins people aren't atheists. Who told you evolution was atheism? The majority of Christians accept evolution; why would they do that if it was "atheist"? Are you saying the Pope of all people is atheist? He accepts evolution.
theist/creationist: answers in genesis and harun yahia network.
The problem is that the information at these sites is not factual.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by MaxAug, posted 10-10-2004 12:16 PM MaxAug has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by MaxAug, posted 10-10-2004 4:11 PM crashfrog has replied

MaxAug
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 310 (148936)
10-10-2004 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by crashfrog
10-10-2004 1:05 PM


You should show me these facts... not variations or speculations such as the type im already tired of seeing at TO since at least 1,5 years. And actually you should explain to me what did you meant by information at AIG and HH arent factual, because they use as reference, articles published in scientific periodicals, for example the 2 links below:
Mutations | Answers in Genesis
http://www.darwinism-watch.com/99_myth_is_dead.php
As anyone can see they use information obtained in respected scientific periodicals.
The absolute majority of the people i know, when asked, say they believe god directed the evolutionary process. interestingly, most of them never heard about the ID or creationist movement. You know pretty well the evolution theory is the most important pillar of atheism, i wont even waste time arguing this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by crashfrog, posted 10-10-2004 1:05 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by NosyNed, posted 10-10-2004 4:41 PM MaxAug has not replied
 Message 102 by Jazzns, posted 10-10-2004 5:02 PM MaxAug has not replied
 Message 103 by crashfrog, posted 10-10-2004 6:07 PM MaxAug has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 99 of 310 (148937)
10-10-2004 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by MaxAug
10-10-2004 12:16 PM


W e l c o m e !!
Welcome to EvC, MaxAug.
It would be a good idea for you to review the guidelines from the home page and,perhaps, to spend a bit of time reading over what others are posting before diving in to quickly.
I would also suggest that you be careful about what links you use.
None of the "evil" evolutionists here, including those who are very much believing Christians will not be rather to very, very familiar with the sites you posted. If you relay on them you might be disappointed.
Here you are also expected to supply your own defence of your position with reference to links. If you don't understand the arguments on your own you will be at a disadvantage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by MaxAug, posted 10-10-2004 12:16 PM MaxAug has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 100 of 310 (148938)
10-10-2004 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by MaxAug
10-10-2004 12:16 PM


W e l c o m e !!
Dumb double post.
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 10-10-2004 03:41 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by MaxAug, posted 10-10-2004 12:16 PM MaxAug has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 101 of 310 (148940)
10-10-2004 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by MaxAug
10-10-2004 4:11 PM


Your first link to answers in genesis is discussing information. Please take that to a separate thread and define what is meant by information in this context.
Evolution of complexity/information might be a good place to pick it up and add your comments. We have yet to get a good, operational definition of what information is in the way answers is using it. You can defend them and show how information is calculated perhaps. Do it in that thread as it is more "on topic" there.
You will probalby have too much on your plate but there is also a place to discuss chimp genetics. I find it amusing that 95 % isn't considered similar.
The absolute majority of the people i know, when asked, say they believe god directed the evolutionary process. interestingly, most of them never heard about the ID or creationist movement. You know pretty well the evolution theory is the most important pillar of atheism, i wont even waste time arguing this.
You should know that the people you know are hardly a valid sample to draw any conclustions from. The absolute majority of people I know believe something rather different. They don't represent a valid sample either.
If you won't waste time arguing something do NOT bring it up. You are expected in a good faith debate to defend any assertions you make.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by MaxAug, posted 10-10-2004 4:11 PM MaxAug has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3939 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 102 of 310 (148941)
10-10-2004 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by MaxAug
10-10-2004 4:11 PM


http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/re2/chapter5.asp writes:
This is a serious misstatement of the creationist argument. The issue is not new traits, but new genetic information. In no known case is antibiotic resistance the result of new information.
...
If a malfunction in a printing press caused a book to be printed with every page doubled, it would not be more informative than the proper book.
...
Therefore, it is free to mutate free of selection pressure (to get rid of it). However, such ‘neutral’ mutations are powerless to produce new genuine information.
This seems to be the main theme of their argument that no benefical mutations can occur. This is not factual because they never define what information is or why any of these examples do not increase information. If I duplicate each page of a book why is that not new information? What is this information that supposidly cannot be increased?
http://www.darwinism-watch.com/99_myth_is_dead.php writes:
As we have explained in one of our previous articles, "Darwinists Misrepresentations About the Human Genome Project", it is surely reasonable for the human body to bear some molecular similarities to other living beings, because they all are made up of the same molecules, they all use the same water and atmosphere, and they all consume foods consisting of the same molecules. Certainly, their metabolisms and therefore genetic make-ups would resemble one another. This, however, is not evidence that they evolved from a common ancestor.
But in that case what kind of scientific explanation can be given for similar structures and genes in living things? The answer to that question was given before Darwin's theory of evolution came to dominate the world of science. Men of science such as Carl Linnaeus and Richard Owen, who first raised the question of similarity in living creatures, saw these structures as examples of "common design." In other words, similar organs or similar genes resemble each other not because they have evolved by chance from a common ancestor, but because they have been designed deliberately to perform a particular function.
Modern scientific discoveries show that the claim that similarities in living things are due to descent from a "common ancestor" is not valid, and that the only rational explanation for such similarities is "common design," i.e. Creation.
Paragraph 1 states that genetic similarities is not evidence for evolution. This is a claim not a fact. This claim is not proven true by the fact that humans and nematode worms supposidly have a high degree of genetic similarity.
Paragraph 2 states that the alternative is common design. This is not a fact proven by science and certainly not by the authority of a few "men of science".
Paragraph 3 is the conclusion and states a blatant opinion. Not a fact. The only alternative to disproving common descent is not common creator.
MaxAug writes:
As anyone can see they use information obtained in respected scientific periodicals.
I can quote respected scientific periodicals all day but if I draw non factual conclusions from them or distort them in some way then I have nothing. The authority of a scientific paper does not automatically give validity or authority to any statement that I might make.
MaxAug writes:
You know pretty well the evolution theory is the most important pillar of atheism, i wont even waste time arguing this.
So what? Even if you could some how show that evolution is pillar of a particular belief it does not mean that evolution comes from atheism. There are plenty of people of religions who accept evolution. That dosent associate them with atheism. I am pretty sure a lot of atheist believe in gravity too. What does that say about gravity?
The key here is evolution DOES NOT EQUAL atheism simply by the fact that we can find a single person who is both not atheist and also believes in evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by MaxAug, posted 10-10-2004 4:11 PM MaxAug has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 103 of 310 (148954)
10-10-2004 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by MaxAug
10-10-2004 4:11 PM


You know pretty well the evolution theory is the most important pillar of atheism, i wont even waste time arguing this.
If you did argue it, it would be a waste of your time, because it's not true.
Evolution is not the most important "pillar." If atheism has any pillars at all, the most important one is also the only one - there is no evidence for the existence of God.
That's it. That's atheism. Plenty of atheists support evolution, but not all of them do. (There's plenty of idiot atheists, like the Raelians.)
The absolute majority of the people i know, when asked, say they believe god directed the evolutionary process.
Yes. As I said, most Christians are evolutionists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by MaxAug, posted 10-10-2004 4:11 PM MaxAug has not replied

RED WOLF
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 310 (176925)
01-14-2005 9:14 AM


This is a little off course but I think you will find it interesting
Darwin is Dead Jesus is Alive. Who do you trust your life with? There is adaptation yes.Evolution. I don't believe so. But can it even be proven? There are Three Basic concepts of Evolution. I Evolution (chance), II Progressive Evolution, III Theistic Evolution. IF all three believe in evolution--Why does each group "conclusively" PROVE the other two are impossible? And How about the evolution of man. There is still no prove of it being true, but it is still being taught.
Heidlberg Man: Built form a jaw bone that was conceded by many to be quite human.
Nebraska Man: Scientifically built up from one tooth and later found to be the tooth of a extinct pig.
Piltdown Man: THe jawbone turned out to belong to a modern ape.
Peking Man: 500,000 years old. All evidence has disapeared.
Neaderthal Man: At the Int'l Congress of Zoology (1958) Dr. A. J. E. Cave said that his examination of the famous Neanderthal skeleton found in France over 50 years ago is that of a old man who suffered from arthritis.
Cre-Magnon Man: One to the earliest ans best established fossils is at least equal in physique and brain capasity to modern man...so what is the difference?
Mondern Man: The genius who thinks we came from apes.
"Professing themselves to be wise they became fools." Romans 1:22
Evolutionists tested by te Potassium-Argon Method, Strata in which Leakey's Nutcracker Man was found and reported to be 1 3/4 Million years old. - But when they tested other material in the
same strata by Carbon-14, it showed 10,000 yrs old. Which is right?- Dr. Whitelaw, a professor in nuclear engineering, claims it to be less than 7,000 yrs. old.
A Living mollusk was tested by carbon-14 and found to be dead for 3,000 yrs.
Dr. Melvin Cook said that if oil in the earth was as old as geologists claim (80,000,000 years)it's pressure would have disipated long before this--the present pressure of oil indicates not over
10,000 yrs.
We've been taught that it took millions of years to produce oil. This is a fact--scientists working
in a lab, produced a barrel of oil from one ton of garbage in only twenty minutes!
We know that the electrons of the atom whirl around the nucleus billions of times millionth of a second. Also that the nucleus of the atom consists of particles called neutrons and protons.- The
neutrons have no electrical charge and are therefore neutral--But-- The protons have positive charges. one law of electricity is that--LIKE CHARGES REPEL EACH OTHER! Being that all of the protons on the nulceus are positivley charged - they should repel each other and scatter into space. What holds them together?
Christ the creator was before all things, and by him all things hold together Col 1:17
-It also says that, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.. John 1:3

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Quetzal, posted 01-14-2005 9:51 AM RED WOLF has replied
 Message 111 by nator, posted 01-14-2005 2:50 PM RED WOLF has not replied

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5900 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 105 of 310 (176941)
01-14-2005 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by RED WOLF
01-14-2005 9:14 AM


Re: This is a little off course but I think you will find it interesting
More than a little "off course".
I suggest you break out the various topical areas and take each one to the appropriate forum.
For example:
1. Your complete and utter lack of understanding of human evolution and the evidence thereof would be better in the "Human Evolution" forum.
2. Your complete and utter lack of understanding of radiometric dating would be better in the "Dates and Dating" forum.
3. Your complete and utter lack of understanding of physics would be better in the, ummm, "Miscellaneous Topics (?)" forum.
4. Your misunderstanding of evolution in general (contained in your first paragraph) is probably better addressed in the "Is It Science" forum.
I'll be happy to eviscerate your cut-and-paste (err, I mean "explain your misunderstandings") in the appropriate forum. Feel free to jump into an existing topic or start a new one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by RED WOLF, posted 01-14-2005 9:14 AM RED WOLF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by RED WOLF, posted 01-14-2005 12:19 PM Quetzal has not replied

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