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Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
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Author | Topic: What is supernatural? | |||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
This definition page was taken from WordIQ.com:
The Supernatural refers to conscious magical, religious or unknown forces that cannot ordinarily be perceived except through their effects. This word is often used interchangeably with preternatural or paranormal. Unlike natural forces, these putative supernatural forces can not be shown to exist by the scientific method. Claims of supernatural phenomena conflict directly and fundamentally with current scientific understanding.
A concept of the supernatural is generally identified with religion, although there is much debate as to whether a conception of the supernatural is necessary for religion (see The nature of God in Western theology and Anthropology of religion). Generally, most people contrast the supernatural with the natural, while some people believe that these two concepts are compatible. There have been many attempts to verify claims of supernatural phenomena scientifically. All are generally considered failures, although proponents often claimed to show startling and unusual results. Most scientists claim that the experiments are best classified as pseudoscience, that they have been experimentally flawed, statistically invalid, and/or not repeatable. Many critics of such experiments state that believers fool themselves into seeing results due to magical thinking. Many events once accepted as supernatural are now understood as manifestations of a natural, explainable nature that were misinterpreted. Most religious people claim that these phenomena, being essentially "unnatural," are not appropriate for scientific study (see also William James, The Variety of Religious Experience). The supernatural is also a topic in various genres of fiction, such as fantasy and horror. Some examples of supernatural phenomena are miracles, ghosts; psychic abilities like psychokinesis and telepathy are better classified as paranormal than supernatural. John Drane writes that science is perpetuating "intellectual arrogance" when it does not accept the possibility of supernatural events and miracles: "To say that unique events can never happen, or that the supernatural does not exist, when most people of most ethnic groups at most points in history have claimed otherwise, is merely to perpetuate the intellectual arrogance of previous generations of Western thinkers, and far from providing an answer to the questions raised by history it merely begs larger and more important questions about the nature of Western intellectual culture." In response, most scienists and historians regard such arguments as fundamentalist religious apologetics.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Crashfrog writes: Yes. I agree. I personally catagorize all supernatural phenomena as "spiritual" in that it is either the Holy Spirit or the other wannabe ones causing the "effects". Are you suggesting that eventually even spiritual effects will be understood as natural ones? nothing can be perceived except through its effects, and most of the natural forces we're aware of were "unknown" at some point.That there will be proven to be no spiritual realm?
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
crashfrog writes: So then, to you there is no spirtual realm in a perfect world,right? Everything is somehow natural, and we natives have to read more books. Right? Tear down your idols and Totem poles and pull out your laptops!
I'm saying that what you consider the "spiritual realm" will come to be understood simply as a hitherto-unknown area of the natural realm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Wow! You replied in like two minutes! Are you always online? I guess that judging from your number of posts that you are. Anyway....
To you there is no spiritual realm in a perfect world, right? crashfrog writes: So then, not in THIS world. Yet then you say: Not in a perfect world, in our world. In the real world.I never said there wouldn't be a spiritual realm; just that the spiritual realm is still part of the natural world. So I disagree. I maintain that since God is the source of Spirit and creation, He transcends the natural world. You, on the other hand,believe that human wisdom is the only source of reality, which I can respect. This leads to your conclusion that everything has an explanation eventually.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So then, to reclarify, there is to you either no spiritual realm in our current natural world or, if there is, it is a part of the natural world?
crashfrog writes: I maintain that since God is the source of Spirit and creation, He transcends the natural world. I never said there wouldn't be a spiritual realm; just that the spiritual realm is still part of the natural world.crashfrog writes: And I say that Jesus was born supernatutrally and became part of the natural world. Today, His Spirit, living on in Holy people(Holy only due to Gods grace) is a part of the natural world. So I guess that we agree somehow and somewhat. He can't trancend the natural world and still do things in the natural world. If he can do things in the natural world, he's part of the natural world. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-02-2004 03:10 AM
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
crashfrog writes: I am not saying that this has to be true, but let me ask you this: Do you think that given enough time, science and/or rational thought will be able to explain EVERY mystery in life? Are you so rational that you define the mysterious as mere unexplained natural phenomena? What would lead you to conclude that "spiritual effects" will never be understood?================================================================== This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-11-2004 03:04 AM
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Do you think that given enough time, science and/or rational thought will be able to explain EVERY mystery in life? Are you so rational that you define the mysterious as mere unexplained natural phenomena?
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
crashfrog writes: Indeed. You are, of course, going off of a different definition of God than I am. On a number line analogy, God, being infinite, is not only the value of 0 to infinity, but is also the value of 0 to - infinity. Many think that we are humans having a spiritual experience. Few see that we are spirits having a human experience.
God cannot be both A and ~A at the same time.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
crashfrog writes: But then, you say:
God, being an entity and not a number, cannot have a value at all.crashfrog writes:
So what gives? How can we declare what God can and cannot be? God cannot be both A and ~A at the same time.At least my theory is shared by many believers, even if we can't define why we ascribe to it.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
crashfrog writes: So we are to agree that the definition of supernatural is unexplained natural phenomena? OK. Works for me, but until then, will you agree that there's nothing we know to be supernatural, but plenty we know to be unexplained?Go find some genuine Christian (or other faiths,also) believers who have testimonies of how their lives were totally changed and of testimonies of miracles or encounters of an unexplained kind. The sincerity of these people is genuine. They are not lying. I suppose that some who have seen U.F.O.s could be also tested genuine. These testimonies would differ from the mental patient who saw the I.P.U. so this invalidates the claim that I.P.U. is the same as U.F.O. or Angelic manifestations. My point is that we as yet do not have a definite natural explanation for authentic instances of changed lives and encounters with the unknown. Believers call it supernatural. You call it unexplained. TomaTOE, ToMAHtoe.
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