Conflict of interests

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I'm grateful that you were able to make it through this period with your faith intact. I just wish everyone would.

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But, faith in gods/God does not ensure happiness, contentedness, better health, better relationships, etc., compared with not having faith, or being agnostic. In fact, there is good evidence that Athiests and Agnostics are happier in general and have better marriage relationship success that many Christian religious denominations.I did not shed my faith (I'm Agnostic) because of Evolution; I was raised a Catholic so there was never any conflict there.I am much more content, fulfilled, happy, loving and tolerant as a non-believer than I ever was as a believer.The assumption that those who believe are automatically happier or more fulfilled than non-believers is a baseless one.

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It's not so much that they're presenting their case to believers that bothers me, because I feel everyone has the right to decide for themselves what to believe or not to believe. What bothers me is that some try to take advantage of believers at this particularly vulnerable time when they're transitioning.

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...you mean like the missionaries that haunt college campuses which are filled with kids far from home, under stress, possibly having a hard time making friends......or the missionaries that go to impoverished regions of the world to set up schools and hospitals, and oh, yes, churches.It's not like the Baptist missionaries are hanging out at BYU. They know who the easy targets are.I understand what you are saying, and I do not condone what these Athiests have done, but I really do think that it's religious, particularly Christian, missionaries over many centuries which have done more to exploit vulnerability in individuals than the Athiests.

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I'll give you an example of what bothers me. There's a particularly sleazy tactic that's used sometimes by atheists trying to get a creationist to become an atheist.

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First, they'll lure them over the bridge to accepting evolution by talking about theistic evolution, non-overlapping magisteria, why vs. how, etc. Then once they've gotten them to accept evolution and to begin questioning their beliefs, they'll slam them hard, switching tactics, asking difficult theological questions, ridiculing supernatural beliefs, etc.

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My former best friend converted to Mormonism while we were roomates in college. At first, those nice, good-looking, kind, wholesome young men in suits were very reasonable, talking about God, and love, and fellowship, and family.Then, right before she was going to be baptized, my friend came to me, sobbing, because she just learned that none of here non-Mormon friends would be in heaven with her. She would be separated from her beloved grandparents, parents, and me, for eternity. I asked her why any god that loved her would force her to spend eternity apart from the people she loved the most? This got no response, and she went ahead and became a Mormon.Fast forward a few years, and she finds a nice Mormon man to marry. Guess what? None of her family is Mormon, so they are not allowed to attend the ceremony. They get to go to the reception.The Mormons say they are all about "family", but what they really mean is "the only kind of family worth anything to Mormons is other Mormons."Anyway, I consider the Mormon Church, and other Christian sects, to be aggressively predatory towards young, vulnerable people in transitionary life stages.I really do not see, and never have seen, on any level, in any place, any comparable Athiest effort to recruit people.Perhaps you have come across some in your internet travels, but the big difference there is that you can turn off the computer, or just ignore the poster.It's much harder to ignore a real, friendly person, especially when you are lonely.

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I've seen this happen before because people tried it on me.

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Have you had them knocking on your door, or do you walk by three or four of them on your way to every single class, or to work?

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I also find it really hard to get an atheist or agnostic to admit that there is no real external meaning/purpose to life without God.

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Well, no, an Athiest wouldn't say that there is an "external" purpose, but that doesn't mean that a purpose that one decides upon for oneself isn't "real".

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The thought is too depressing.

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...but it isn't depressing to non-believers at all.It is to you, but not to us.

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Religion isn't just about making your life better. If that was all it was about, then I don't think it would have lasted for as long as it has.

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Well, religion is also about effective conveyance of cultural mores to large numbers of people, as well as being about very effective control of the behavior of large numbers of people.It's a very effective self-perpetuating social control institution, and that's the biggest reason it has lasted as long as it has.However, anything that anybody has ever done, at any time in history, pretty much has to pass the "WIIFM" test."What's In It For Me"?People don't do anything unless they get something out of it, real or imagined, or hoped for.If religion isn't about living a better life, what is it for?

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I happen to think God really does exist, and I think it's a really sad thing when someone rejects Him.

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Well, OK, but why?Why is it important to believe in God?

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I don't make that assumption. In fact embracing religion can make someone's life a lot harder! People have this idea about Christianity that it's the easy religion to follow, and that's not really true.

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Hmm, well, Christianity might be "easy to follow" or it might not be, but the point I was making was about belief in God/the supernatural vs. non-belief or Agnosticism.

Yep, yep, yep.Tons of Christians and Mormons on college campuses everywhere, preying upon lonely, stressed kids.Honestly, I have lived in or on 5 different college campuses for the past 14 years.I have never once experienced or heard of anyone being approached by an Athiest looking to convert me, never seen any notices for any Athiest, Agnostic, Freethought, or skeptic groups, etc.I have been approached many, many times over the years by Christians, and it's been going on my whole life as people came door to door. There are always "Campus Crusade For Christ" meetings being advertised currently, and that group even sponsors Creationist speakers.

[...]This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-02-2004 05:36 PM

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All cultures have mores and put controls on behavior.

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Right.And, most cultures through all of recorded history, through to the present, have used religion to convey their mores and control the behavior of their citizens.That is not to say that religion is the only means used, but it is the oldest, and many would say, the most effective.

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Or maybe, it actually has validity.

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All of them are equally valid?Even the defunct ones?

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Having a relationship with God, seeking "enlightenment" through that.

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But if you are seeking "enlightenment" through having a relationship with God, then isn't that about having a better life?Isn't is "better" to one's life to be enlightened rather than not?

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Making your life better doesn't really explain why some people have made enormous sacrifices, even died, for their faith. That's certainly not "making your life better."

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This is not the kind of thing the vast, vast majority of religious people do when they choose to follow a faith, though.If it was made clear to every single Christian, from childhood, that every Christian will definitely be called to be martyred for the faith, how many people do you think would be lining up to convert, and how popular would the religion be?I contend that people follow a faith or religious system because it makes them happy/content, etc....which brings me back to my original point, that non-religious folks are just as well-adjusted, happy, content, etc (or not) as believers.

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Not believing in God doesn't make Him go away. He's still there, and still wants to have relationships with people. Unfortunately some people just decide they don't need God and reject him.

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How do you know that God wants people to believe in it/him/her and have a relationship with it/him/her?Why should I accept that God exists when there is no evidence for the supernatural?Why would God blame me for following what my God-given senses tell me and for not going beyond that into what is quite likely a culturally-influenced mass delusion?(no insult intended here)

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History shows that an old earth is the recent aberration

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Is the notion that germs or brain chemistry, contrary to evil spirits and the Devil as it says in the Bible, cause disease and mental illness a "recent aberration?It the notion of the Earth as a sphere, as opposed to a flat disc as it says in the Bible, a "recent aberration"?Is the notion of the Earth as the third planet in orbit around the Sun, in a solar system on the edge of the Milky Way galaxy, in contrat to the Bible which says that the Earth is the center of the Solar System and universe, a "recent aberration"?

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Once people could be made to doubt Gods word, it was much easier to bring them to a point of total unbelief, which is what Lyell wanted.

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I've just spent the last couple of minutes reading several short bios of Lyell and I'll be darned if I can find anything about him having a mission to spread athiesm through his work in Geology. Even several Creationist sites mentioned him but failed to mention this about him.Perhaps you can post some citations or in-context quotes which support your view that Lyell wanted to bring people to the "point to total unbelief"

A reply to messages #63 and #64 when you are able, please.

Almeyda, the writing style, punctuation, spelling, and vocabulary of the following passage is very different from what you usually write.Tell me, who wrote the following?: This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-10-2004 12:00 PM

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"[Saddam] had a lot of intent. He didn't have capabilities. Intent without capabilities is not an imminent threat."-ex-chief US arms inspector David Kay