Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,914 Year: 4,171/9,624 Month: 1,042/974 Week: 1/368 Day: 1/11 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Conflict of interests
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 71 (146720)
10-02-2004 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by arachnophilia
10-02-2004 6:48 AM


quote:
i find creationism especially offensive for a similar reason: it binds god by a universe the creationist made up.
Before i start, i want to say that creationists do not believe blindly, desperately trying to prove a God. They stand proud because their hearts believe logically, & rationally in the evidence of God, the evidence of the Bible, & the evidence of science. Even if you dont believe in what creation science teaches, or are against creation/creationists, then its just fair that you yourselves realise that no matter how right you think you are. Theres always other opinions, & i hear so often how evolutionary humanistic philosophy, is the rational way of thinking. Its pretty much taken over society (secular humanism). Anyway, to my reply... The reason we even decided to chase a literal genesis, is because we are reading the Bible, and interpreting it, in what it meant to the original readers. What genesis meant, how God intended for the text to be interpreted, what it meant to the Jews, & early church fathers. And heres what we found...
In the beginning (Heb. Bereshit) marks the absolute beginning of the temporal and material world. The traditional jewish and christian belief is that Genesis 1:1 declares that God created the original heaven and earth from nothing (Lat. ex nihilo), and that verse 2 clarifies that when it came from the Creators hand, the mass was "without form , and void", unformed and without any life. There is no evidence in the Hebrew text for long ages of evolutionary development or a gap time between verse 1 & verse 2. "God" (Heb. Elohim), this form of the divine name occurs 2,570 times in the OT. The plural ending "im" indicates a plural of majesty and takes a singular verb. "Created" (Heb Bara), this verb is used exclusively with God as its subject. It refers to the instananeous and miraculous act of God by which He brought the universe into existence. Thus, the Genesis account of Creation refutes atheism, pantheism, polytheism & evolution.
"Without form, and void" (Heb. tohu wabohu, 'unformed and unfilled'). Describes the condition of earth after the initial act of creation. It does not describe a chaotic condition as a result of judgement. Thus "was" (Heb. hayetah) is correct and should not be translated "became". "The spirit of God" is a clear reference to the creative activity of the Holy Spirit. John 1:3 indicates that Christ created all things with the father thus all 3 persons of the Trinity are active in the Creation. This undoubtedly accounts for the plural pronouns "us" and "our" in verse 26 (genesis) which take singular verbs in expressing the tri-unity of God.
Verse 1:3 says 'And God said'. This is the first highly structured series of succinct and formulaic sentences expressing the creative commands of God. Thus, creation is accomplished by his word. Each command consists of (1. an announcement, "God said" (2. a creative command, "Let there be" (3. a summary word of accomplishment, "And it was so" (4. a descriptive word of accomplisment, "The earth brought forth" (5. a descriptive blessing, "God blessed" (6. an evaluative approval, "It was good" & (7. a concluding framework, numbering each day. Simultaneously giving mankind a 'temporal' framework (Exodus 20:11)
Thats as far as i can go today, in studying Genesis. But you can now see the framework creation builds itself on. What Gods word says and can we trust in it or not. The world which of course wants independence from God and doesnt want to live under 'his rules' have put God out of society. Thats probably a different topic discussion altogether. In a nutshell, creationists havent made up any sort of 'recent theory'. That would be evolution. Creation has been fact since the beginning premeval history, & Israel. Regardless of who believed in Elohim or not (1 Samuel 4:7-8).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by arachnophilia, posted 10-02-2004 6:48 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by arachnophilia, posted 10-03-2004 6:03 AM almeyda has replied

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 71 (147692)
10-06-2004 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by arachnophilia
10-03-2004 6:03 AM


Arachnophilia your post is way to long to reply to. I did read it and i still stand by my post. Anyway ill try to answer as much as i can.
quote:
you have a fundamentally wrong way of reading the bible at every level. ignoring reality and scientific fact, your reading does not evem stand up to literary analysis.
Evolution is not fact. Every animal does not turn into every animal. fish do not turn into amphibians, nor do fish turn into people. This is what we observe in the present. Yet the ToE expects us to swallow that everything turned into everything.
quote:
here's a hint of to the mindset of the redactors of genesis. genesis 1 and two describe two instances of creation, which often literally contractict each other. the first story's order goes: light, sky, earth/plants, sun/moon, fish/birds/serpents, animals/man/woman, rest. the second's order goes: earth, man, plants/eden, animals, woman
Which verse in Genesis 2 are you talking about exactly?
quote:
this tells us a few things. it tells us that the earth was not created from nothing. it says it existed before god said anything, it was just empty. it also tells us that it was not neccessarily in the beginning. (ask amlodhi, i'm sure he'll back up the learned hebrew scholars.)
Genesis marks the absolute beginning of the temporal and material world. Ex Nihilo. It does not mean natural proceses over billions of years.
quote:
genesis two describes god as forming man out of the earth, physically. your "instantaneous and miraculous" is an interpretation, and does not match the text. the word indicates a process. but i've posted about this before.
It is a miraculous event. As it happens on the 7th day. Not over millions of years through premeval homosapiens.
quote:
it refutes athiesm. like independence day with will smith refuted that we're alone in the universe. i'd hardly call it a conclusive, factual document.
The Bible comes from the mind of God. It implies that God does exist, therefore any form of humanistic/athiestic philosophy is wrong.
quote:
a better explanation for the pluralities may be the qabalistic one. it also explains why god would create man male AND female in his image. the text does say that god is male and female.
The doesnt make sense. The one that does make sense is the plural pronouns "us" and "our" in verse 26 (genesis) taking singular verbs in expressing the tri-unity of God.
quote:
actually, old-earth views have been around a long time. the creation myth in question is younger than you might think (about 600 bc) and creationism in the sense we think of today is even younger.
It wasnt until men like James Hutton (1795) & Charles Lyell proposing that geologic changes occured slowly in the past, and therefore enormous time periods were required to form strata, mountains & canyons, that doubt was cast. In other words, they excluded any consideration of castastrophism (the belief that massive upheavels as the global flood along with earthquakes,volcanic activity, and tidal waves that accompany it would have been instrumental in forming the geological features of the earth). Evolutionists Stephen Jay Ghould in his book Ever Since Darwin described how Lyell used 'True Bits of cunning' & ' imposed his imagination upon the evidence' in order to get his dogmatic, slow and gradual philosophy accepted as 'the only true geology'.
Once people could be made to doubt Gods word, it was much easier to bring them to a point of total unbelief, which is what Lyell wanted. So enough doubt had been created about biblical events such as divine creation and noahs flood. By the advent of Darwins book in 1859, many people were completely prepared to reject the entire gospel in favour of a totally mechanistic, materialistic philosophy. This radically new belief system gradually replaced the Christian foundation, which continued to erode due doubt on its foundation. Genesis. As genesis was cleverly undermined the whole structure above it began to collapse.
History shows that an old earth is the recent aberration
quote:
Source of Creation Date - Authority - Date BC
Alfonso X (Spain, 1200s) Muller 6984
Alfonso X (Spain, 1200s) Strauchius, Gyles (1632—1682)5 6484
India Gentil, French astronomer c.1760 6204
India Arab records 6174
Babylonia Bailly6 (French astronomer, 1736—1793) 6158
China Bailly 6157
Diogenes Laertius (Greece 3rd Cent.) Playfair 6138
Egypt Bailly 6081
Septuagint (LXX)7 Albufaragi 5586
Josephus (1st Century Jew) Playfair 5555
Septuagint, Alexandrine Scaliger, Joseph (1540—1609)8 5508
Persia Bailly 5507
Chronicle of Axum, Abyssinian Bruce (1700s) 5500
Josephus Jackson 5481
Jackson 5426
Hales 5411
Josephus (1st Century Jew) Hales 5402
India Megasthenes,9 Greek historian (c. 340—282 bc) 5369
Talmudists Petrus Alliacens 5344
Septuagint, Vatican 5270
Bede (673—735) Strauchius 5199
Josephus (1st Century Jew) Univ. Hist. 4698
Samaritan computation Scaliger 4427
Samaritan text Univ. Hist. 4305
Hebrew (Masoretic) text 4161
Playfair and Walker 4008
Ussher, Spanheim, Calmet, Blair, etc. 4004
Kepler10 (1571—1630) Playfair 3993
Petavius (France, 1583—1652) 3984
Melanchthon (1500s) Playfair 3964
Luther (1500s) 3961
Lightfoot 3960
Cornelius a Lapide Univ. Hist. 3951
Scaliger, Isaacson 3950
Strauchius 3949
Vulgar Jewish computation Strauchius 3760
Rabbi Lipman (1579—1654) Univ. Hist. 3616

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by arachnophilia, posted 10-03-2004 6:03 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by nator, posted 10-06-2004 8:50 AM almeyda has not replied
 Message 64 by nator, posted 10-06-2004 8:57 AM almeyda has not replied
 Message 65 by Primordial Egg, posted 10-06-2004 9:23 AM almeyda has replied
 Message 68 by arachnophilia, posted 10-07-2004 1:42 AM almeyda has not replied
 Message 71 by nator, posted 10-10-2004 12:58 PM almeyda has not replied

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 71 (147746)
10-06-2004 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Primordial Egg
10-06-2004 9:23 AM


Dont talk to me about it. Hes the one that argued it. I just simply gave him what history has belived.
quote:
actually, old-earth views have been around a long time. the creation myth in question is younger than you might think (about 600 bc) and creationism in the sense we think of today is even younger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Primordial Egg, posted 10-06-2004 9:23 AM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Primordial Egg, posted 10-06-2004 9:36 AM almeyda has not replied
 Message 69 by arachnophilia, posted 10-07-2004 1:48 AM almeyda has not replied
 Message 70 by nator, posted 10-07-2004 8:45 AM almeyda has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024