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Author | Topic: Conflict of interests | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rubystars Inactive Junior Member |
I'm aiming this post toward the "Faith and Belief" message board. Hopefully it'll end up there.
There's something that's been bugging me for a while, since I've been involved online in arguing in the evolution vs. creationism debate for a couple of years now. I am strongly in favor of good science education, promoting evolution, etc. I don't believe that accepting evolution has to conflict with religious beliefs, including Christianity. However, when I first accepted evolution, I had many challenges to my faith. Some people were very helpful in explaining evolution to me, but at the same time they put pressures on me, both directly and indirectly, to give up my belief in the supernatural and in Christianity in particular. I'd liken this experience to taking a stroll through a minefield. I am satisfied both emotionally and intellectually with my choice to both remain as a Christian and accept science fully. However, there are many people who try to trip up Christians who don't know how to argue back with them or who try to get them to reject their faith, or try to force them to choose one or the other. I've actually met two different people online who have told me straight up that's their goal, to get Christians to give up their faith. I've seen more than one person move from devout Christian to weak Christian to agnostic as they went through the same learning process. I want to help promote science and acceptance of evolution and long ages, etc. On the other hand, I don't want to send people off into this dilemma either. I feel that my faith is ultimately stronger for having been tested, but others may not be so lucky. There are many who are actively trying to "deconvert" Christians who are making the transition from creationist to evolutionist. They are trying to weaken and undermine the faith of these people at a time when they are especially vulnerable to being influenced in that way and could use guidance and support. When you give up something like creationism, which preachers have over-emphasized as important, then you begin to question everything you've ever believed. In itself, that's a good thing! This is productive and in my opinion ultimately leads to stronger faith once things are sorted out. However, when you have atheists and others coming in at this time deliberately trying to push people then it becomes much more difficult for someone in this situation. My conflict of interest comes in, in that I want to promote evolution and good science, and at the same time, as a Christian I don't want to help cause others to stumble in their faith. I'm just interested in knowing if others have similar feelings or not.
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Rubystars Inactive Junior Member |
quote: I was always both, but for the longest time I didn't know how to tell the difference between junk and real science.
quote: I've always liked animals and wanted to be a Biologist. I like other types of science too.
quote: That's interesting. I've heard plenty of creationists tell me that they were "former evolutionists." so maybe it does go both ways so to speak. I always thought that if they had ever really understood evolution, the evidence in favor of it, etc. that they couldn't just decide not to accept it anymore without a large amount of cognitive dissonance. Now that my eyes have been opened by facts and evidence, there's no way I could ever go back to being a creationist!
quote: That's good. I feel that rather than using miracles, the supernatural usually works through natural processes. I believe miracles are possible of course, or I wouldn't be a Christian. I just think they're rare. There are so many things that have gone on in the last few billion years on this planet that the YECs would say never happened. I was watching Walking with Dinosaurs one afternoon and I thought to myself "If the YECs were correct, this prehistoric world and ecosystem never would have existed." I had similar feelings when I watched a show about ancient cartilagenous fish being diversified at a certain period of time (may have been the Devonian). They want to smash everything into a ridiculous 6,000-10,000 year window. Thankfully I was never really a YEC, but I listened to both YECs and OECs. Even OECs often deny a lot of things that went on in the past, such as the elegant transitions from land mammals to whales, etc. The world of a creationist is so much poorer and duller, the worlds science tells us of are so much more rich and interesting.
quote: Great! I think if people making the transition from creationist to evolutionist were more grounded in their faith, then it would be easier for them to make that transition, but unfortunately most people really aren't as smart about that stuff as they need to be. I found myself on a crash course so to speak about various theological concepts that I never took much time to think about when I was suddenly bombarded with anti-Christian arguments.
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Rubystars Inactive Junior Member |
quote: I was always both, but for the longest time I didn't know how to tell the difference between junk and real science.
quote: I've always liked animals and wanted to be a Biologist. I like other types of science too.
quote: That's interesting. I've heard plenty of creationists tell me that they were "former evolutionists." so maybe it does go both ways so to speak. I always thought that if they had ever really understood evolution, the evidence in favor of it, etc. that they couldn't just decide not to accept it anymore without a large amount of cognitive dissonance. Now that my eyes have been opened by facts and evidence, there's no way I could ever go back to being a creationist!
quote: That's good. I feel that rather than using miracles, the supernatural usually works through natural processes. I believe miracles are possible of course, or I wouldn't be a Christian. I just think they're rare. There are so many things that have gone on in the last few billion years on this planet that the YECs would say never happened. I was watching Walking with Dinosaurs one afternoon and I thought to myself "If the YECs were correct, this prehistoric world and ecosystem never would have existed." I had similar feelings when I watched a show about ancient cartilagenous fish being diversified at a certain period of time (may have been the Devonian). They want to smash everything into a ridiculous 6,000-10,000 year window. Thankfully I was never really a YEC, but I listened to both YECs and OECs. Even OECs often deny a lot of things that went on in the past, such as the elegant transitions from land mammals to whales, etc. The world of a creationist is so much poorer and duller, the worlds science tells us of are so much more rich and interesting.
quote: Great! I think if people making the transition from creationist to evolutionist were more grounded in their faith, then it would be easier for them to make that transition, but unfortunately most people really aren't as smart about that stuff as they need to be. I found myself on a crash course so to speak about various theological concepts that I never took much time to think about when I was suddenly bombarded with anti-Christian arguments.
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Rubystars Inactive Junior Member |
quote: Unfortunately a lot of religious people don't talk about it in a rational way. They present religion as a long list of things never to question, rather than as a complement to physical reality.
quote: That's sad. I asked a lot of questions too but thankfully no one tried to shut me up like that.
quote: The dilemma comes in, in my opinion, because both religious people and anti-religious people present this as either/or. In other words, if natural processes were the cause, then God couldn't be involved at all, or if they use "Goddunit" for an explanation, then they're not interested in any further exploration, sort of like the people who were content to blame disease on evil spirits for so long. I believe God can work through natural processes, that it doesn't have to be dichotomy. This allows me to have faith and still pursue science materialistically as the scientific method requires.
quote: Unfortunately a lot of religious people never grow up, they never mature. They just stay stuck in the "Santa Claus" conception of God and never question anything or explore anything. Then they don't know how to answer their kids' questions so they just say "Goddunit" and can get upset if that answer isn't satisfying enough. Just know that not all religious people are that way.
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Rubystars Inactive Junior Member |
quote: Sounds like a good quote. It just seems like this message doesn't get through to enough people. It's hard to be a theistic evolutionist because you get criticized from both sides. For accepting evolution, creationists have called me: 1. Atheist2. Satanist 3. Hellbound 4. Bad Christian 5. Materialist 6. Wolf in Sheep's clothing 7. Fence sitter For believing in God, atheists have called me: 1. Deluded2. Irrational 3. Fundy 4. Sky Fairy believer 5. Insane 6. Ridiculous 7. Brain damaged It's tough sometimes! I take these insults with a grain of salt though. I know that my views are at least consistent and I don't have to deny anything, either physical or supernatural, to hold them.
quote: Well I'd say science is pretty much neutral as far as religion in general goes, but I think that it's no threat to Christianity or to belief in God. I also think that on a personal level that believing in God can help add richness to learning in science, giving the world a more complete picture, but that when conducting science you must do so materialistically.
quote: I always feel closest to God when I'm out in nature.
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Rubystars Inactive Junior Member |
quote: I'm still pondering a few things myself. As for the Flood I believe it probably occurred but was a local event. There's also a lot of symbolism injected into that story and there's some related stories in things like the Epic of Gilgamesh and at least one other ancient book that may have predated the recording in Genesis. I've thought maybe the existing story was taken and adapted a bit. Didn't Abraham come from Ur where he could have come into contact with that story? I've still got more to learn about that though.
quote: If there was absolute evidence though, there wouldn't need to be any faith. I think we see hints but nothing that would absolutely establish God as existing because God wants us to have faith. The creation itself is evidence of a sort, but since it was apparently created primarily if not completely through natural processes, it doesn't appear divine to those not theistically inclined.
quote: I grew up thinking it had to be one or the other. So many people do, that's one reason why people who make the transition are in such danger of being led astray.
quote: I know what you mean.
quote: I'm grateful that you were able to make it through this period with your faith intact. I just wish everyone would.
quote: Especially when there are people who make it their mission to destroy people's faith.
quote: Pray for your friend that she'll come back and I will too. I think that truth can't be a bad thing, even if that means accepting evolution and having a temporary crisis of faith, but we believe that Christianity is also truth, yes? So hopefully she will come back, but she might be helped if you talked to her about the feelings you had, etc. if you haven't already.
quote: One bad thing is that it's hard to get straight answers to questions about the Bible a lot of times because the vast majority of "apologists" seem to be creationists, so that won't help us reconcile with evolution, and most of the other Biblical critics/examiners are anti-Christian, so that doesn't help either.
quote: I haven't studied too far into all of that but it does sound interesting.
quote: I've made massive posts before, so your small post doesn't look like rambling at all to me.
quote: Thanks. Could I get that at the library or do you think I'd need to look for it in a bookstore?
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Rubystars Inactive Junior Member |
quote: It's not so much that they're presenting their case to believers that bothers me, because I feel everyone has the right to decide for themselves what to believe or not to believe. What bothers me is that some try to take advantage of believers at this particularly vulnerable time when they're transitioning.
quote: Yes, I understand that. What I think is a bit amusing is that I see both sides asking people to "Step into the light and out of darkness", speaking about each other as the "darkness."
quote: Yes, but both sides are bad about not telling people that. The creationists will tell the person that if they accept evolution, they're basically spitting in God's face by rejecting his existence completely. The atheists will sometimes say that accepting science as a method to study nature automatically means one can't have any theistic personal beliefs, or that you can't believe in God and accept science without having MPD. Science is neutral. It focuses only on the material world, and is functionally "atheistic." What people don't always understand however is the difference between methodological naturalism and philosophical naturalism. Too many people on both sides equate the two.
quote: That's a big part of it.
quote: That's basically what I deal with when I'm on message boards like this one anyway. There are a few people of other religions that come on to debate against evolutionists but it's mostly educating Christians. I'll give you an example of what bothers me. There's a particularly sleazy tactic that's used sometimes by atheists trying to get a creationist to become an atheist. First, they'll lure them over the bridge to accepting evolution by talking about theistic evolution, non-overlapping magisteria, why vs. how, etc. Then once they've gotten them to accept evolution and to begin questioning their beliefs, they'll slam them hard, switching tactics, asking difficult theological questions, ridiculing supernatural beliefs, etc. I've seen this happen before because people tried it on me.
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Rubystars Inactive Junior Member |
quote: Religion isn't just about making your life better. If that was all it was about, then I don't think it would have lasted for as long as it has. I happen to think God really does exist, and I think it's a really sad thing when someone rejects Him.
quote: Ok.
quote: I don't make that assumption. In fact embracing religion can make someone's life a lot harder! People have this idea about Christianity that it's the easy religion to follow, and that's not really true.
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Rubystars Inactive Junior Member |
quote: Thanks for your opinion on that. You've given me a lot to think about here, which is good!
quote: Yuck. I'm sorry to hear that. If I were her, I'd be crying even harder about the fact they apparently believe that women will have babies for all eternity while men get their own planets according to that strange religion.
quote: That's just awful. At least they got to go to the reception though. I think there are some cults that don't even allow contact with non-believing family members at all.
quote: Ever go to a university?
quote: If you're sincerely wanting to have a dialogue, you won't just turn it off.
quote: True.
quote: I don't know, I don't go around polling people's religion or lack thereof, but I know what you mean.
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Rubystars Inactive Junior Member |
Well I've been to college for two years and maybe the pressure was put on me differently than it was on some other people, but I noticed that almost every professor I had tried to drag Christianity through the mud.
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Rubystars Inactive Junior Member |
Welcome back Monkey Boy. I hope you'll find as I have that faith ends up being stronger once it's been challenged.
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Rubystars Inactive Junior Member |
quote: All cultures have mores and put controls on behavior.
quote: Or maybe, it actually has validity.
quote: What you would call "imagined" I'd probably call real in this case.
quote: Having a relationship with God, seeking "enlightenment" through that. Making your life better doesn't really explain why some people have made enormous sacrifices, even died, for their faith. That's certainly not "making your life better."
quote: It's sad because God wants to have relationship with people he created and they sometimes reject Him.
quote: Not believing in God doesn't make Him go away. He's still there, and still wants to have relationships with people. Unfortunately some people just decide they don't need God and reject him.
quote: Nonbelief isn't necessarily easy either, as I'm sure you well know. It does take much less effort philosophically though.
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Rubystars Inactive Junior Member |
quote: quote: Yep. This message has been edited by Rubystars, 10-04-2004 12:56 PM
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