Is man inherently good or inherently evil?

riVeRraT responds to me:

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For example, there is no concept of death and resurrection in the Jewish tradition concerning the Messiah. Where on earth did that come from as it is not a Jewish thing.

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Just because no-one Prophecies about him coming back from the grave, does not mean he didn't fill the phrophcies of the bible.

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When the claim is that he is the Messiah because he died and was resurrected as "prophesied," then yes, it does mean he didn't fulfill the prophecies because that was never prophesied.Christians claim Jesus is the Messiah but Jesus did things that the Jewish Messiah would never do such as claim to be god. Therefore, Jesus couldn't possibly have fulfilled the prophecies because he failed to actually be the Messiah.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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Then you proceed to twist what I say to make it sound like I am insulting myself, which you already know its not true.

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It's called "rhetoric," riVeRraT. It's to show just how poorly argued your point is. If you cannot handle it, then you should seriously consider bowing out.

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rhain, I have no time to waste on people like you

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And yet, you keep on coming back for more. Are you a masochist?

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You will choose your own destiny, and only you can condemn yourself. God will be the one to judge.

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BZZZZT!Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, riVeRraT. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!Well, Bob, riVeRraT has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, riVeRraT gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat.You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you?

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So go ahead and shrug your shoulders at me, and come up with a crazy long response that was designed to do nothing more stir up anger in someone (which you have failed to do with me).

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(*chuckle*)You respond with a post that boils down to, "Liar, liar, liar, liar, liar, pants-on-fire" and you claim you aren't stirred up with anger?Grow up, child. It's called a "spine." I highly recommend you getting one.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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Seriously, riVeRraT: Who gets to be the final arbiter on who is or is not a Jew: Jews or Baptists?

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Seriously rhain, who should we believe?

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The Jews.You see, you ask a simple, direct question and I give you a simple, direct answer. Why are you incapable of that.

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The Jews percecuted Jesus 2000 years ago,

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That's because he wasn't the Messiah. He claimed to be god and the Messiah according to Judaism is NOT god. This is one of the fundamental tenets of Judaism: There is only one god. One. No more. None of this "three-in-one" bullshit, either. The Messiah cannot be god.Therefore, for Jesus to claim to be god proves that he could not possibly be the Messiah. Anyone who claims otherwise is violating the primary concept of Judaism: One god.

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and still do it today.

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You cannot persecute someone who isn't here.You seem to be confusing the word "deny" with "persecute." The fact that Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah is not persecution.Jews are not refusing to accept the divinity of Jesus out of spite.

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Who's the final arbiter? God.

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God isn't here to tell us. The last time he spoke, though, somebody wrote it down:I am the lord, your god. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.In other words, Jesus isn't god. Jesus can't be god. If Jesus were god, that would violate the very first commandment. You really have no idea what Judaism is, do you? But then again, how can you when you readily admit that you haven't even bothered to read the Old Testament?

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But if Jew decides to believe in Jesus, and accept him as there Messiah, what difference does it make who is running their temple?

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What on earth does this mean?

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What difference does it make who accepts it?

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Apparently, it makes a great deal of difference to you. You're the one who keeps calling Jews fools for not accepting Jesus.

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My own link clearly states that they NEVER WERE JEWISH

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Funny you and I read 2 different things then.

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According to its Executive Director, Jews for Jesus has many non-Jews in administrative and staff positions but deploys "only front-line missionaries who are Jewish or married to Jews."

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Question: Does being married to a Jew make you a Jew?That's a very simple, direct question. It would be nice if you provided a simple, direct answer.Second, do the words, "They are lying," mean anything to you? I already asked you that question once.

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Jewsish, OR married to Jews. That would mean both, not one or the other.

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What does it matter if you're married to a Jew? Do you seriously believe that being married to a Jew makes you Jewish? There are two and only two ways to be Jewish. One requires an accident of birth and one requires going to a rabbi, being tried before a court, an operation if you are male, a mikveh, an offering, a renaming, and a public ceremony. Marriage has nothing to do with it.And once again, what part of "They are lying" don't you seem to understand. Yes, they claim that their front-line missionaries are Jewish, but investigation finds out that they aren't really Jews. They were only born to Jewish fathers, not Jewish mothers, for example. Some are simple outright liars who have absolutely no connection Judaism and yet still claim to be Jewish in order to perpetuate the lie that Jews for Jesus actually has some connection to Jews.They are lying, riVeRraT. I don't know how else to say it.

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Jewsish, OR married to Jews. That would mean both, not one or the other.

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Incorrect. In English, "or" means the exclusive or: One or the other but not both.

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That would be the reason why the Jews do not accept it.

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No, the reason why Jews don't accept is because they simply aren't Jews. It would be akin to a white person putting on blackface and then claiming to be black.What makes a person Jewish is being born to a Jewish woman or active conversion. No other method exists. You are not Jewish simply because you claim to be Jewish just as you are not Catholic simply because you claim to be Catholic. You have to be baptized (and a few other ceremonies) if you're going to legitimately claim to be Catholic.My sister recently went to a Catholic wedding. Thus, Mass was said. And during it, my sister went up and took communion. My sister is not Catholic. (*blink!*) I asked her, point blank, "You do realize that you have committed sacrilege, right? Non-Catholics are not allowed to take communion." This is all the more confusing for me because my sister and I went to Catholic school for a couple years and sat through more than one Mass and we were specifically kept from taking communion because we weren't Catholic. Surely she remembered this. Apparently not.Did you see My Big, Fat, Greek Wedding? In it, Ian converts to Orthodox so that he and Toula can be married in the Greek Church. And yes, that requires the stripping down to his skivvies, baptism, and anointment with oil that you see him going through. As I have said more than once comparing Orthodox Christianity to Catholicism: All the ritual, twice the guilt!

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but that does not make the fact that Jewish people are indeed involved and have found their Messiah, invalid.

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Yes, it does.If they aren't Jewish to begin with, they cannot be "Jewish people who have found their Messiah." If they aren't Jewish to begin with, they cannot be "Jewish people who are involved."

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So your point is mute.

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"Moot." The word is "moot." It is pronounced like what you would normally associate with a cow but with a /t/ on the end. Not "myoot." "Mute" means "silent." "Moot" means "worthy of discussion but not capable of actual effect." That's why lawyers go to "moot court." The cases being argued are highly valuable and you need to go through them in order to understand the issues involved. However, the results will not change anything. It is argument for enlightenment's sake.But in the end, it most certainly isn't moot. Pointing out the outright lies of J4J is hardly something that has no effect.Edited to fix formatting mistake.This message has been edited by Rrhain, 11-05-2004 02:53 AM

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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but Jesus did things that the Jewish Messiah would never do such as claim to be god.

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Of course, then Jesus would have to be the Messiah.

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Can you prove that he did things that the real Messiah would never do?

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Did you not read what you just quoted?He claimed to be god.The true Messiah would never, ever make such a claim because such a claim would violate the very foundation of Judaism: Only one god. That's the very first commandment. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Jesus cannot be the Messiah because Jesus claims to be god.Jesus does miracles, also a direct violation of Judaism. Compare Jesus to Moses. While miracles are performed with regard to Moses, he never claims to be the one doing them and the text makes it perfectly clear that god is the one performing the miracle. God tells Moses, "You do this and I will cause this to happen." So Moses does what god told him to do and god causes what he said he would. It's all about god. Moses is constantly telling god, "I can't do that," and god is constantly responding, "Don't you worry about it. I'll take care of it. You just be where I need to you to be. You can do that."Jesus, on the other hand, is described as the one actually performing the miracles. That's a direct violation of the fundamental aspect of Judaism: Only one god.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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It's called "rhetoric," riVeRraT. It's to show just how poorly argued your point is. If you cannot handle it, then you should seriously consider bowing out.

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Rhetoric is not part of a constructive conversation, or an intelligent one.

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Incorrect. Rhetoric is how constructive, intelligent conversations are carried out. You have to be able to think in order to carry out such conversations. That's why the ancient philosophers taught Rhetoric. The very first English class all Mudders are required to take as freshment is "Rhetoric." You learn to read, analyze, and then synthesize. The word "rhetoric" means the art of writing or speaking effectively.Rhetoric is extremely important to the rational mind and anybody who tries to tell you different would prefer you wallow in ignorance.

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Funny, in the definition of rhetoric, I find the word insincere

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Yes, only by skipping over the primary definitions.You're absolutely right that "rhetoric" has acquired a perjorative meaning. That's because people who are unskilled in rhetoric have come to hate those who are and thus, like "liberal," have turned it into an insult.

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You respond with a post that boils down to, "Liar, liar, liar, liar, liar, pants-on-fire" and you claim you aren't stirred up with anger?

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Grow up, child. It's called a "spine." I highly recommend you getting one.

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Proved my point again, beatiful,

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(*chuckle*)You insult me, I respond in kind to show you a lesson, and you still don't get it.

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I'm done.

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I'll believe it when I see it. More than once you have claimed to be done with me and yet you still keep on responding.It's time to put your money where your mouth is. If you're done, then be done.

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A coolly academic approach?

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I'm not the one condemning people to hell and calling Jews idiots.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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Therefore, for Jesus to claim to be god proves that he could not possibly be the Messiah. Anyone who claims otherwise is violating the primary concept of Judaism: One god.

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Ha! Concept. So God is a concept now.

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In that concepts are nouns and god is a noun, yes. Is this part of your anti-rhetoric glee? Are you incapable of talking about how people conceptualize the world around them?

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You seem to be confusing the word "deny" with "persecute." The fact that Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah is not persecution.

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Jews are not refusing to accept the divinity of Jesus out of spite.

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No they do it out of fear. Fear of losing power and control, the same as 2,000 years ago.

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No, it can't be because they're sincere in their beliefs. It can't be because they think they're right. They have to be doing it because they're afraid. They have to be doing it because they know that you're right and are just spiteful and willful and evil.Congratulations, riVeRraT. You've just insulted all Jews again. You really don't know when to quit, do you?

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In other words, Jesus isn't god. Jesus can't be god. If Jesus were god, that would violate the very first commandment. You really have no idea what Judaism is, do you? But then again, how can you when you readily admit that you haven't even bothered to read the Old Testament?

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The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

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Like one of us.

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Keep going...you admit you haven't read the whole thing. I even told you precisely where to look. I even quoted you the specific text you needed to keep in mind:I am the lord, your god. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.You seem to forget that Judaism evolved from its Babylonian, polytheistic roots into the monotheistic religion we have today. If you read the Old Testament, you can watch it shift right in front of your eyes. Heck, even in Genesis, it keeps flipping back and forth. Like it or not, Judaism at the time of Jesus was monotheistic. There is no other god. Everything (and that means everything as Isaiah 45:7 points out) comes from the singular source of god.For Jesus to claim to be god would be to violate the first commandment.

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Apparently, it makes a great deal of difference to you. You're the one who keeps calling Jews fools for not accepting Jesus.

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Being fooled, and never being taught the truth, is not being a fool.

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But they have been taught the truth: Jesus isn't the Messiah.

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The Jews I have spoken with are forbidden to even talk about Jesus.

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(*chuckle*)Now I know you haven't spoken to a single Jew.

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Question: Does being married to a Jew make you a Jew?

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Does being a Jew make you not a Jew?

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Non sequitur. Let's try again, shall we?Question: Does being married to a Jew make you a Jew?

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The articla cleary states, for the 3rd time, that there are Jews involved

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Four the fourth time, the article is clearly lying. Examination of the people the article claims to be Jewish finds that they aren't. Just because somebody says that he's Jewish doesn't mean that he is.

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there still are people who are Jewish, that are not Jewish by marraige,

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Stop right there!This is the point of my question: Do you seriously think that someone can be "Jewish by marriage"?This is a very simple question. If you take more than one word to answer it, you are avoiding it.

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but by birth that belong to it.

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But that's just it...they're not even Jewish by birth.What do you think it takes to be "Jewish by birth"? It's very specific. Not just anybody qualifies.

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That would mean that at leas some of them are genuin, that is what I am trying to tell you, if you haven't got it yet.

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No, I get it. It is you that is under the unfortunate delusion. They aren't genuinue. They aren't Jewish. One cannot be "Jewish by marriage." Being born to a Jewish father does not make one Jewish.

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God isn't here to tell us.

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But the Holy Spirit is.

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Says who? You? Why should we believe you?Once again, you're violating the first commandment. No other gods before me. Have you ever noticed that the "Holy Spirit" never shows up until the New Testament? Why do you think that might be?

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Tell me, have you ever felt the Holy Spirit? Have you decided it was fake?

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Get used to disappointment. My religious experiences are irrelevant.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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I'm not the one condemning people to hell and calling Jews idiots.

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Sure you are rice-a-roni boy.

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Does the word "irony" mean nothing to you?Oh, that's right...that's that "rhetoric" that you detest so much.You will find that I have never brought up my standard response to Pascal's Wager except when someone invokes it. In other words, the only time I mention going to hell is when someone has specifically, consciously, and deliberately threatened someone else with it.And here's the thing, which apparently has escaped your anti-rhetoric euphoria, my own argument applies to me! Just as your condemnation of me to your Christian-tinged vision of hell is invalid due to the fallacy of Pascal's Wager, my comment about your afterlifetime supply of Rice-a-Roni is just as much invalid for the same reason.I use it to make a point, riVeRraT...one which is obviously beyond you, even when I spell it out in its entirety.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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No, it can't be because they're sincere in their beliefs. It can't be because they think they're right. They have to be doing it because they're afraid. They have to be doing it because they know that you're right and are just spiteful and willful and evil.

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Congratulations, riVeRraT. You've just insulted all Jews again. You really don't know when to quit, do you?

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I have not insulted anyone, just merely told the truth.

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Oh, please. You claim that Jews reject Jesus because they are afraid and you have the gall to sit there and say you do not "pre-judge"? You have the unmitigated arrogance to claim that you tell the truth?

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For Jesus to claim to be god would be to violate the first commandment.

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The three are one.

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Nice try. There is no "three." There is only one. God does not need Jesus because if god wants to do something, god will do it. There is no such thing as "son of god" because that would mean that there is something other than god and that simply isn't the case.First commandment.

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But they have been taught the truth: Jesus isn't the Messiah.

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So you claim.

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So you know better than the Jews what Jews think? How arrogant.

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Now I know you haven't spoken to a single Jew.

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So now your calling me a liar?

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Yes.

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You think I am incapable of knowing a Jew?

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I have no idea if you are capable or not. All I know is that by your words, you clearly don't know anything about Judaism or Jews.

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But that's just it...they're not even Jewish by birth.

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Yes they are, some of them.

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No, they're not. They're lying to you.

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The article says so

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The article is lying.

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I know one personally.

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No, you don't. You are lying.

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Once again, you're violating the first commandment. No other gods before me. Have you ever noticed that the "Holy Spirit" never shows up until the New Testament? Why do you think that might be?

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Don't believe, me, believe the Holy Spirit.

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But there is no "Holy Spirit" in Judaism because that would mean there is more than one god and god clearly states that there is only one. Why would Jews listen to someone who violates the first commandment?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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You will find that I have never brought up my standard response to Pascal's Wager except when someone invokes it. In other words, the only time I mention going to hell is when someone has specifically, consciously, and deliberately threatened someone else with it.

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Right, I never do that.

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Incorrect. Message 188 of "Is man inherently good or inherently evil?" threadMessage 166 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Message 142 of the "Religion in Government" thread: You were saying:

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Even when I mentioned about something you said wouldn't help get you into the gates of heaven.

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(*chuckle*)You even apologized for that one, riVeRraT. What on earth would be the point of apologizing for saying I was going to hell if you weren't saying I was going to hell? After all, if I'm not getting into heaven, then where else do you expect me to go?

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I think I have told you about 100 times now, only God can judge and send you anywhere.

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Yes, but you don't seem to be willing to let god do his job. You seem to think you are capable of doing his job for him. You seem to think that god needs your help.You keep telling people that they are sinning: Message 212 of "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Message 186 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread, in response to comments about gay dolphins: Message 137 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Same message: What is the point of this if not to point out that they're going to go to hell for it? Well, how the hell do you know? You're not god. God will be the one to decide and he doesn't need your help. You have enough problems of your own without worrying about whether or not other people are sinning. Be more concerned about the plank in thine own eye than the mote in your brother's.

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But I do care where you go.

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And as I keep telling you, I don't want you to care. God, assuming god exists, knows and if god wants me to change my ways, god will let me know. God does not need your help.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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Oh, please. You claim that Jews reject Jesus because they are afraid and you have the gall to sit there and say you do not "pre-judge"? You have the unmitigated arrogance to claim that you tell the truth?

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That is what I see with my eyes. I may or may not be wrong, but I am not lying.

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Yes, you are. No Jew acts that way. So unless you're willing to admit that you have a mental condition that prevents you from accurately judging the emotional states of others, then you are simply lying.

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At least I took the time in life to find the truth for myself.

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And Jews don't?

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The three are one.

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Nice try. There is no "three." There is only one. God does not need Jesus because if god wants to do something, god will do it. There is no such thing as "son of god" because that would mean that there is something other than god and that simply isn't the case.First commandment.

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I have no idea if you are capable or not. All I know is that by your words, you clearly don't know anything about Judaism or Jews.

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Your perception of what a Jew is supposed to be. Not all Jews are the same, just like Christians.

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Indeed, but I don't need to examine every single Jew to know that Jews are not Jews because they are afraid Christians might be right.

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No, you don't. You are lying.

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We are now done, later.

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You keep saying that but you never seem to go away.-----
Dropped a "not" which completely altered the meaning of a sentence.This message has been edited by Rrhain, 11-13-2004 05:14 PM

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

AdminNosy responds to me:

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No, you don't. You are lying.

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This should only be charged if you have real evidence.

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The evidence are the Jews, themselves.Are you seriously claiming that there are Jewish people who are Jewish simply because they are afraid Christians might be right?

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The fact that RiverRat is confused isn't enough to charge this.

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But that's just it. I'm not saying that he's confused. I'm saying he's making it up. If he had ever had any real contact with Jewish people and discussed what it means to be a Jew and how Judaism affects a Jew's daily life, then he would never make the claims that he has made.I'm not saying he has never met or talked with a Jew. I'm saying he has never had a heart-to-heart like he claims he has because if he had, he would never make such a claim.The evidence is in his own postings. Jews are Jews because they are afraid.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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I'm saying he's making it up.

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Awesome!

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I notice you don't deny it.Oh...and I thought you were through with me. Why are you responding when you're through with me?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!