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Author Topic:   God, The Supernatural And the Three Laws
Phat
Member
Posts: 18353
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 91 of 147 (167314)
12-12-2004 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Buzsaw
12-09-2004 8:14 PM


Re: Hard To Believe!
Buzz writes:
Law 1. It is impossible that energy and mass can come to be, or as some would put it, be created.
So this leads to your further explanation of your belief, which you call a "law" when you say
Buzz writes:
My hypothesis, at least has something more tangible than space to begin with, but I am beginning with an intelligent entity/god in place of the particle of space and I am giving it far more time to happen. As most long timers her are no doubt aware, I have long contended that the universe is and has been forever. So Rich's hypothesis and mine have something "forever." He has the forever particle of space and I have the forever intelligent deity
I can see as a Christian where God has always existed, but if you claim that the universe has always existed, you are turning into a pantheist in my book. Are you stating, in effect, that you believe the universe and universal energy/matter to be God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2004 8:14 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Buzsaw, posted 12-12-2004 1:20 PM Phat has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18353
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 137 of 147 (167673)
12-13-2004 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Buzsaw
12-12-2004 2:20 PM


God is not subject to natural law
Buzz writes:
Now that I'm caught up on responses, I've been thinking about this discussion about God, the supernatural and 2ltd relative to the sabbath day, as initiated in Genesis one. Genesis one states that after God finished his work involving six creation days, he rested on the sabbath/7th day. This's interesting, relative to his power. It appears to implicate that God's entropy did, as per 2ltd, increase to the point of having need of a rest day for resustenance to his desired power maintenance. This also seems to indicate that there is an ebb and flow of energy and entropy between God, the creator and his created universe.
Again, this speaks of pantheism. God no more needs to rest than does any Omnipotant Deity.
(Is there any others?)An Omnipotant being cannot "lose" energy. The fact that He rested in the Bible is a good question to ask of a Biblical Literalist. When you tie in the energy exchange as an ebb and flow between Creator and creation, you cross over into pantheism by definition.
pantheism \pan-the-i-zem\ n : a doctrine that equates God with the forces and laws of the universe pantheist \-ist\ n pantheistic \pan-the-is-tik\ adj
God may well have rested as Jesus may well have felt energy leave Him. You of all people should know that God is not a finite and limited source. There is no ebb and flow. There is only flow.
From a monotheistic perspective, that is. If God lost some of His energy when He created the Universe, this would be a pantheistic fact.
If He did not, it would be in line with classic monotheism.
Here is where you suggest that God(or Jesus) may be incorporated within and subject to the natural law:
Buzz writes:
Correct me if mistaken, but aren't energy and heat related? I've read some definitions of the 2nd law where energy is applicable. The unhealty person lacked energy. Power/energy proceeded forth from Jesus, the powerful one and entered into the weak one who lacked energy, effecting a measure of equalibrium of energy. Thus we see the 2nd law satisfied, do we not?
Maybe your belief is different from mine, but if you are a Christian, stick to the absoluteness of your theology. Don't try and explain God through the laws that He created. He is unprovable in all measure of science. He is not subject to some puny law that He made. When He rose from the Dead, He broke numerous natural laws. There is no reason to suggest that He is neatly within a natural explanation.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-13-2004 10:17 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Buzsaw, posted 12-12-2004 2:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by MrHambre, posted 12-13-2004 10:53 AM Phat has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18353
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 139 of 147 (167692)
12-13-2004 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by MrHambre
12-13-2004 10:53 AM


Re: When Is a Miracle Not a Miracle?
In a Godless Universe, yes Mr. Hambre.
In a Theistic source Universe, we have issues.
It all goes back to the question:
Is God the source or is Human Wisdom the source?
My rebuke of Buzz was presupposing that He agreed with me that God was the source in this Universe. Is it too convenient to presuppose God, Mr. Hambre? I am a theologian and not a scientist. He thinks therefore I am.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-13-2004 11:07 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by MrHambre, posted 12-13-2004 10:53 AM MrHambre has not replied

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